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Thomas Moudry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5060
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| Posted: 04 February 2007 at 12:08am | IP Logged | 1
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Edited because I changed my mind.
Edited by Thomas Moudry on 04 February 2007 at 12:15am
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John Bodin
Byrne Robotics Member
Purveyor of Rare Items
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3911
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| Posted: 04 February 2007 at 12:22am | IP Logged | 2
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Paul Greer wrote:
Watchmen has always been one of my favorite comic books to read. But I think the point JB is making when he says its a terrible super-hero story is that none of the characters involved are really heroes. Some are fascists, some are cowards, some are in it for the glory, approval of their peers and others are super powered beings. But none are heroic. Rorschach, in the begining, seems to be the hero of the piece. When he is exposed as being crazy it takes the heroism out of his character as well. A story that still entertains me, with some of the best art in the world, but not a superhero story. Being "super" doesn't mean you are a hero, that's what I always took from the story.
The sad aftermath of this type of story is that people keep trying to make the existing comic book heroes non-heroic. Dick Giordano was correct in making Moore create a self contained world for this type of story. It's a shame the editors of today won't take that stance to protect their franchise characters. |
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Thank you, Paul, for these words -- I agree wholeheartedly, and you did a much better job than I did of summing up the problems I had with Watchmen. As a story, I loved it, but as a superhero story, I hated it . . . and I've always somewhat resented the fact that after Watchmen, it seemed that plain old "superhero" stories were no longer "kewl" enough to warrant telling. THAT is really the only problem I have with Watchmen, in fact.
Sadly, Watchmen seems to have become the accepted standard for "how to write a good superhero story," and calling Watchmen a good "superhero story" is as audacious as calling Roy Lichtenstein one of the all-time great comic book artists.
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Thomas Moudry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5060
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| Posted: 04 February 2007 at 12:29am | IP Logged | 3
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I agree with that assessment of Watchmen. Pretty much how I felt about it at the time it was published and upon re-reading. I enjoy it in a bubble, so to speak.
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Dave Powell
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Joined: 14 November 2006
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| Posted: 04 February 2007 at 12:37am | IP Logged | 4
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Thomas, Paul and John,
Exactly how I feel. Watchmen was a fine story, but it tarnished the comics I love forever. It painted every selfless hero as a glory seeker, or a a sexual deviant, or just OFF. Superhero comics were never the same, with the exception of Kurt Busiek's Astro City, and Avengers, and Geoff John's bringing back Hal Jordan. I miss the rest of them.
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Tony Marine
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 January 2007
Posts: 112
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| Posted: 04 February 2007 at 1:35am | IP Logged | 5
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My list of Stories that Shouldn't Have Been Told (or Didn't Need to be Told) includes:
Watchmen
The Dark Knight Returns
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Anybody who thinks these 2 stories should never have been told, lives in the bizarro universe to mine. These are probably 2 of my favorite comics ever. Also, I don't see the point in saying they aren't "superhero" comics. Who cares? I want GOOD comics. Write whatever stories you want; tweak the characters anyway you like. If it's done well, great. If not, I'll stop reading and pick up something else. I don't see why folks need to impose a set of criteria on what should and shouldn't be done. If you like the way comics were written and drawn in the 50's or 60's or 70's, go re-read those. Let the medium continue to grow and change and approach it with an open mind. I personally think the last bunch of years have been a new golden age in comics. There have been a lot of great things out there - better than most other periods I can recall. Before anyone jumps on my case; I'm not saying that EVERY dumb idea works, and that having Bruce Wayne have a long lost brother is a good idea. But if someone writes and draws it, I'll be willing to give it a chance...
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Rafael Guerra
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2006
Posts: 413
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| Posted: 04 February 2007 at 3:53am | IP Logged | 6
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QUOTE:
| The sad aftermath of this type of story is that people keep trying to
make the existing comic book heroes non-heroic. Dick Giordano was
correct in making Moore create a self contained world for this type of
story. It's a shame the editors of today won't take that stance to
protect their franchise characters. |
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But exactly how much blame should Alan Moore, or Frank Miller, or Mark Waid should take for this? In the case of Moore, he actually lamented the effect Watchmen had on comic books. They just set out to do stories, which lot of people liked. Is their fault that some of them failed to comprehend the depth of their work and choose to only copy the superficial aspects of it?
Because if they are indeed to blame, then we might as well also blame JB for having hand in killing Jean Grey, and Gerry Conway for killing Gwen. And we could also go even further, and blame Stan for the Fantastic Four, he was, after all, the one who started to portray these characters as something that aproximated real people.
Or we can judge them on their own merits instead of the effect they had on others. (paging Darragh for the words to describe these two approaches)
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Glenn Stone
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Joined: 15 September 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 144
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| Posted: 04 February 2007 at 7:33am | IP Logged | 7
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I thought Gwen Stacy was killed because they wanted to something dramatic, something permanent.
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Yes, they wanted to kill someone in a dramatic fashion, but I think I read that Gwen was chosen because they couldn't think of something new for her. I think they had planned for her to marry Peter, but that idea was rejected.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 04 February 2007 at 7:44am | IP Logged | 8
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Deaths of characters because "there are no more stories to tell." +++ I believe I heard that's why Gwen Stacy was killed off. Do you think that should not have been done, JB? **** The death of Gwen Stacy made for a dramatic story at the time. I happened to be the issue with which I returned to reading Spider-Man after a hiaitus of about five years, and there was sufficient emotional wallop in the the story that I "got it" even tho I had no idea who Gwen Stacy was, That said -- what the death of Gwen did was draw an immovable line thru Spider-Man's growing mythology. Every story done after the death of Gwen happens after the death of Gwen. If she, like Liz or Bette, had merely drifted off, there would not be a permanently etched reference point that screams out "time has passed!" We have no clear way of knowing just when Peter and Bette broke up, or when Liz ceased to be the love of his life -- but with Gwen, the moment of her death is inescapable. It is no coincidence, I am sure, that in the post-Gwen world, we began to see more and more fans who insisted that the comics must occur, if not in real time, then at least with a noticable passage of time. And, of course, writers and editors who were more than willing to go along with this. The death of Gwen unleashed a cascade of toppling dominoes that even to this day continue to crash thru Spider-Man continuity, and, by association, the continuity of all the other books.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 04 February 2007 at 7:57am | IP Logged | 9
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But exactly how much blame should Alan Moore, or Frank Miller, or Mark Waid should take for this? In the case of Moore, he actually lamented the effect Watchmen had on comic books. They just set out to do stories, which lot of people liked. Is their fault that some of them failed to comprehend the depth of their work and choose to only copy the superficial aspects of it?Because if they are indeed to blame, then we might as well also blame JB for having hand in killing Jean Grey, and Gerry Conway for killing Gwen. And we could also go even further, and blame Stan for the Fantastic Four, he was, after all, the one who started to portray these characters as something that aproximated real people. **** If you think about it for a minute, you should be able to spot the key differences. While Stan did, indeed bring a level of "realism" to supeheroes, and while Gerry and Chris and I did, undoubtedly, do "dark" stories with the deaths of Gwen and Phoenix, the intent was not to "darken" the books or the characters. The intent was not to tell "grim and gritty" stories, but to tell exciting, action packed stories that happened to have unhappy endings. (As some will recall, this was not even the original intent of what became the death of Phoenix storyline --- but that's a whole 'nother thread!) Moore and Miller set out to tell "dark" stories using, in Moores case, the superhero genre, and in Miller's case a specific superhero. Neither of these stories were meant to be part of DC's "reality" -- if you pay even the smallest amount of attention, you can see that DKR is actually "pre-CRISIS" -- and neither author worked with any anticipation of the long shadows they were about to cast. Ironically, tho, we can actually see the shadows forming in the effect WATCHMEN had on DARK KNIGHT. Frank was working on DKR when the WATCHMEN stuff started coming in. Jeanette made sure everyone got xerox copies. I stopped reading with the fifth issue (the one that revealed Rorshach was crazy to begin with), but what Moore was doing clearly had a profound effect on Frank's magnum opus. Frank always treats his stories as organic things, allowing them to carry him off in directions quite different from what he originally planned, and DKR shows this clearly. The first two issues are set in quite a different world from the last two. What happened? Frank read WATCHMEN.
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Paul Greer
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| Posted: 04 February 2007 at 8:05am | IP Logged | 10
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Quote: "But exactly how much blame should Alan Moore, or Frank Miller, or Mark Waid should take for this? In the case of Moore, he actually lamented the effect Watchmen had on comic books. They just set out to do stories, which lot of people liked. Is their fault that some of them failed to comprehend the depth of their work and choose to only copy the superficial aspects of it?"
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I don't blame either. I blame pale imitations that just had kewl people in costumes being anti-heroes with little to no stories. Youngblood come to mind? I blame editors who hire creators who just want to create their "Death of Jean Grey" or next big event to shake the foundations of the Marvel/DC Universe. When they fail to realize that huge stories are usually born out of small ones and through the natural growth of the characters.
A super-hero story that should never be told is one that doesn't insure that a franchise character will still be viable for publication forty years from now. Writing all your comics like Watchmen puts your characters in a corner. Watchmen was a 12 issue series that left all those characters unable to continue in a viable way. Which is fine for those guys but not for a group like The Fantastic Four that needs to stay a viable source of monthly income for the company. (Not slamming the current FF, just using as an example)
Edited by Paul Greer on 04 February 2007 at 8:08am
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Derek Muthart
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Joined: 10 September 2005
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| Posted: 04 February 2007 at 8:14am | IP Logged | 11
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What I understand is that you created the first native american in comics
****
Actually I think Red Wolf and Thunderbird came before Talisman.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 04 February 2007 at 8:16am | IP Logged | 12
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You clipped his comment.
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Topic Closed)
