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John Bodin
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| Posted: 27 July 2008 at 3:07pm | IP Logged | 1
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Sorry, Thanos, but I've got to respectfully disagree -- I understand comic book "shothand" for the blues in Superman's hair representing BLACKS, but I've never EVER envisioned Cyclops as wearing black. The Punisher wears black, and in print his costume LOOKS black, but I've never EVER seen Cyclops's uniform portrayed in any way that would suggest to me that it's supposed to be black. Dark, dark midnight blue I could buy, but not black -- the "shiny highlights" argument only works if Cyclops' costume is made from shiny black spandex and if we assume that we only see Cyclops when he's being exposed to bright blue spotlights (and the "spandex" argument alone is a no-no all by itself).
As I said, I defer to JB as the resident expert and I respect his opinion, but in my mind's eye any 3-D depiction of the Cockrum/Byrne-era Cyclops HAS to be blue in order to look "right" to me.
To my eye, Ryan has NAILED the look of the Cockrum/Byrne-era Cyclops as-is.
That's why we customize, though -- to create the version that WE see in our mind's eye -- and in that respect I can't applaud Ryan enough for his efforts (and for Ryan I'm sure it doesn't matter what we think -- he now has HIS "perfect" version of Cyclops, and he SHOULD be proud of what he's done).
On the subject of blues and blacks, though, I never EVER could understand how ANYBODY could think that Superman's hair was supposed to be blue -- even as a little kid, I "got" that Superman's hair was BLACK, period.
;-)
Edited by John Bodin on 27 July 2008 at 3:08pm
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Ryan Maxwell
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| Posted: 27 July 2008 at 3:23pm | IP Logged | 2
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The funny thing is, after I had dealt with the modifications and added all the classic details, I did base coats of black for the costume and white on the trunks, boots, gloves, etc. I put him up to dry on the shelf next to She-Hulk and Mr. Fantastic. Seeing the three of them together looking so similar, it struck me how off Cyclops looked in those colors (and I was half tempted to put a "4" or an "X" on his chest). I couldn't get the first coat of blue on fast enough.
And Thanos, even now, I still don't see black in what you did there. I see a dark midnight blue, which still works, though the painter in me sees all the spots that need highlights. I'll get around to fixing up Nightcrawler sometime, and will definitely go with the matte black with little/no highlights.
Mr. Bodin, thanks for coming to my defense and for your gracious words.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 27 July 2008 at 5:30pm | IP Logged | 3
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…I've never EVER envisioned Cyclops as wearing black.
••
All those years of my life, wasted!
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John Bodin
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 27 July 2008 at 8:58pm | IP Logged | 4
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John Byrne wrote:
| All those years of my life, wasted! |
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Don't be so hard on yourself JB -- the blacks you spotted did not go to waste . . . I always envisioned Cyclops as wearing a dark midnight blue uniform, so at least I "got" that it was a very dark uniform. That's gotta count for something, right?
;-)
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Bob Simko
Byrne Robotics Security
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| Posted: 27 July 2008 at 9:28pm | IP Logged | 5
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JCB brings up an interesting observation...I've had similar perceptions. While I always perceived hair as black, Spider-Man as black/red, and Batman as black/grey, I also always "saw" Cyclops as deep blue (although it clearly makes sense that it should be black/yellow), and also Mar-Vell as red/blue. Interstingly, I did "see" the original X-Men uniforms as black/yellow. I also always "saw" Angel's later (Neal Adams?) outfit as deep blue...although I have come to be able to see it as black/white.
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Ryan Maxwell
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| Posted: 27 July 2008 at 9:37pm | IP Logged | 6
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I never gave it much thought, and have always assumed that the highlight color was the actual color of most costumes/uniforms, and the black was just shading. I totally get where you guys are coming from, but it's just ingrained in my head. Sorry to bring up this old argument, 'tweren't my intent. At least I finally realized the FF were in B&W, not blue and white :^)
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Thanos Kollias
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| Posted: 28 July 2008 at 12:10am | IP Logged | 7
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Ryan, I simply added a black layer with 75% opacity over the blue areas. If I had kept the black with 100% there would be no highlights. It was more technical than intentional.
As for Cyclops's costume, if this is supposed to be blue then I must be losing my mind!!!
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John Bodin
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| Posted: 28 July 2008 at 7:34am | IP Logged | 8
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Here's the problem -- in the last pic you posted Thanos, in the first panel at the top of the page (the group shot with everyone standing at Xavier's desk), Storm's costume is DEFINITELY black, Nightcrawler's costume is DEFINTELY black, and Cyclops' costume looks like NEITHER . . . which is what tells my mind that it's blue. If Scott's costume was made of the same fabric as either Storm's costume or Nightcrawler's costume, and if it was black, I would expect it to appear the same as either of their costumes . . . yet it doesn't. Therefore, my mind interpret's Scott's costume as BLUE specifically because it doesn't look like any of the other costumes that are obviously intended to be BLACK.
Also -- and my memory may be faulty here -- I recall Kitty calling Nightcrawler "blue, fuzzy elf" at times, which led me to see Kurt's tail and face as being very deep, dark blue . . . and since Scott's costume is colored in the same manner as Kurt's tail and face, that further led my mind to the conclusion that Scott's costume is blue.
As Ryan said, though, sorry to bring up old arguments -- it's certainly NOT my intent to sway anybody's opinion or to convince anybody that I'm right and they're wrong . . . just explaining where my assumptions came from, with no intent to convince ANYBODY one way or the other. Besides, as long as we're all enjoying the stories and characters, it doesn't really matter how we interpret the minutia . . . let's leave that stuff to the rabid fan-boys.
;-)
I will say this: I think this discussion of costume colors and comic book coloring and highlights and such is an interesting look at how different people interpret things differently -- from that perspective, I find this discussion to be fascinating, and to some degree I don't really think the issue of "right" and "wrong" really matters. This is all fiction and fantasy based on a four-color printing process, not world-shattering issues. From an interpretive standpoint it's an interesting discussion, but it doesn't really MATTER who is right or wrong.
Which is why I defer to JB as the resident expert. Thanks to JB for his expert insight into things of this nature . . . eventually my mind's eye may come around on stuff like this, but in the meantime these are still stories and characters that we all love, which I think makes it all pretty cool and special.
EDITED TO ADD: Has anybody noticed that fine-looking sculpt of Banshee at the top of the page? That's a pretty good Cyclops conversion that Ryan has worked-up, too.
;-)
Edited by John Bodin on 28 July 2008 at 7:41am
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John Byrne
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| Posted: 28 July 2008 at 7:36am | IP Logged | 9
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…Storm's costume is DEFINITELY black…
••
Many would say it was white.
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John Bodin
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| Posted: 28 July 2008 at 7:42am | IP Logged | 10
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John Byrne wrote:
| Many would say it was white. |
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And that's where the interpretive aspect of all this gets interesting! Or frustrating, depending on your point-of-view.
;-)
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steve bedard
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| Posted: 28 July 2008 at 9:19am | IP Logged | 11
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I always thought it was blue too, and Storm wore a black vest and pants with a white shirt.
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Thanos Kollias
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| Posted: 28 July 2008 at 10:51am | IP Logged | 12
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John, I appreciate your thoughts, and don't get me wrong, I am not here to tell you youa are "wrong" or how to get things "right". Like you, I am expressing my own thoughts.
You talk about Kurt. But Kurt had been seen and he was indeed blue. In fact, his skin color is a different kind of blue than the one used to highlight Cyclops's costume. The same can be said about the blue on Wolverine's original outfit, on Cap, on Superman and on the FF.
In my mind, the grey tone that should have been used in the past was either unavailable dut to technical issues or not impressive enough for a hero. Thus the exact same thing with Black Panther (which John and Glynis took care of in FF#241).
Cyclops's costume derives from the original X-Men school uniforms. And although Jack drew them with more highlights in order to spend less time, the first issue is more than enough proof that it was meant to be black.
And I am sure John, Neal, Paul and Dave aimed for the highlighted black version as well.
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