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John Young
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Posted: 15 September 2007 at 11:23am | IP Logged | 1  

I was reviewing some of the comic related articles I have saved on my hard drive. One of the documents was about the 1963 series from Image Comics. As I read it, I remembered what made the series so good: each of the books was self-contained (except the book 6), each one explained the power of the character, their relationship of the powered and non-powered characters, finally I knew they would win, but not how. The Lost Generation was similar but had more complexity that I enjoyed. My questions to the Forum are:

  1. Are these books example of "Silverage Stories" or just good writing?
  2. Are there any other examples of series or books that are written in this style you like?
  3. Do you like single issue stores?


Edited by John Young on 15 September 2007 at 11:31am
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John Harris
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Posted: 15 September 2007 at 12:01pm | IP Logged | 2  

1. A bit of both. I really enjoyed Horus by the way.
2. Some of the MC2 stuff ( i.e. Last Planet Standing)
3.YES.  I actually prefer them now days.


Edited by John Harris on 15 September 2007 at 12:02pm
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Matthew Lawrenson
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Posted: 15 September 2007 at 12:17pm | IP Logged | 3  

I enjoyed them at the time, though that time was a long time ago.

Now I see them as another example of Alan Moore's sneering.
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John Young
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Posted: 15 September 2007 at 12:37pm | IP Logged | 4  

Matthew Lawrenson, what do you mean by sneering?  Is it that he is making fun of the marvel age, or style of writing? Or "look I can write anything, and you will eat it up like pap!"

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Jason Schulman
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Posted: 15 September 2007 at 12:48pm | IP Logged | 5  

Moore was sneering at Stan Lee because he believed that Lee had taken credit for things that Kirby had actually done. He was basing this view on things Kirby had said in interviews, I believe. 
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John Byrne
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Posted: 15 September 2007 at 12:50pm | IP Logged | 6  

1964 was fairly typical latter-day Moore -- "nostalgia" for stuff about which he is clearly not nostalgic.
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Chad Carter
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Posted: 15 September 2007 at 5:31pm | IP Logged | 7  

 

I'm fairly certain Moore met Jack Kirby and probably supported Kirby's views about the Stan Lee issue. I don't blame him; Stan Lee could've stopped being such a company man and treated Kirby like an equal instead of a disgruntled employee. That might've made a difference.

It gets pretty tiresome where critics of Moore are concerned. It's easy to take shots at Moore's "sneering". Moore takes on a pretty straight-forward pean of love for Marvel in the early 60s called 1963 and gets derided endlessly. What's the point?

And yet we get Warren Ellis and good old Grant Morrison producing work that is heralded as a "return" to Silver Age story-telling, which is horseshit. And Frank Miller has been churning out flimsy superhero work since DK2. But I don't hear the label of comic book Antichrist when their names are evoked.

Moore isn't any ideal comic book creator of mine, but the man does know comics and does have an abiding love for them. How he filters that through his system is what should be judged.

Blame the comic book companies, and particularly the editors, for Moore's excesses. They flung wide the doors and Moore went with his own flaky impulses; the companies desired change and they got it, and so did the readers.

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Steven Myers
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Posted: 15 September 2007 at 6:02pm | IP Logged | 8  

I have to admit there's one or two Moore stories I like.  Not so with Ellis or Morrison...

I loved Lost Generation, never read 1963, and second anything that is "M2"--the Spider-Girl universe stories.  I even loved the just finished Fantastic Five, as DeFalco seems to have gotten a better hold on characters he used to really struggle writing.

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John Harris
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Posted: 15 September 2007 at 6:31pm | IP Logged | 9  

I loved the entire 1963 line. I reread it every couple of years and the only regret I have is that is was never completed. 
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John Byrne
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Posted: 15 September 2007 at 7:40pm | IP Logged | 10  

Stan Lee could've stopped being such a company man and treated Kirby like an equal instead of a disgruntled employee.

•••

Sorry -- I can't remember ---- where was your office up at Marvel in the early Seventies?

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Charles Jones
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Posted: 15 September 2007 at 11:12pm | IP Logged | 11  

I found all the 1963 titles in the 50cent box a few years ago, I was curious about them but they have very little of the charm of the early marvels, the look is right and the stories "seem" accurately done if thats the right word but a lot is missing and i can't put my finger on it. They do seem a little cynical or something.

Anyway Lost Generation Kicks 1963's @$$.

I love Lost Generation and it had more of the fun of old Marvel than 1963 did, anyway I guess they both deserve a try. The Fantastic Four series by Bruce Timm and some Kirby type artists that was done years ago is pretty good, it was a little ambitious and didn't really deliver but it had some nice moments and had the old flavor, like JB is good at capturing with his retro stuff.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 16 September 2007 at 5:46am | IP Logged | 12  

1963 suffered the same problems as DC's "Silver Age" series -- you simply cannot do stuff like this unless you a prepared to play it absolutely straight. Trouble is, too many writers and artists in the field today think the "old stuff" was "goofy' -- and perhaps it was, if you were more than 12 years old. But when you approach something like this, it's that 12 year old who has to be in charge, not the cynical, "wink at the audience" mentality of a 30+.

Give us a group of superheroes, one of whom has a Moon for a head, and you're not doing a homage to the Fantastic Four, you're doing a less funny version of the Inferior Five. And the Inferior Five was not a great idea to begin with!

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Pascal LISE
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Posted: 16 September 2007 at 6:52am | IP Logged | 13  

I enjoyed 1963.
It felt like reading comics I used to read as a kid but updated
for the adult I had become.
Not Silver Age, and how could it be otherwise, 25 years later,
but quite an entertaining experience.

As for Stan Lee, I never forget that some of Kirby's best work
came when he was associated with the man.
Still, I wish, in many interviews he gave, Lee didn't pretend
he didn't understand the reason for Kirby's bitter feelings
at that time.

I still remember how disappointed I felt when Kirby quit
Fantastic Four. Although I quickly fell in love with Buscema's
pencils… after all, show must go on !

Edited by Pascal LISE on 16 September 2007 at 6:54am
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John Byrne
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Posted: 16 September 2007 at 7:00am | IP Logged | 14  

It felt like reading comics I used to read as a kid but updated for the adult I had become.

•••

The "adult" having lost all sense of wonder, to the point of viewing the whole genre with a sense of ennui bordering on contempt?

Curious, now. How many other things from your childhood do you want to see "updated for the adult"? Do you seek out gourmet babyfood? Tricycles built to adult scale? Kid's cartoons "reimagined" with an adult slant? Adult sizes of the fashions you wore?

In point of fact, any adult out in the real world who sought out such things would be viewed as substantially off the beam. What is it about the superhero genre that causes so many "adults" to demand that it be retailored to their chainging needs?

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John Byrne
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Posted: 16 September 2007 at 7:03am | IP Logged | 15  

I wish, in many interviews he gave, Lee didn't pretend he didn't understand the reason for Kirby's bitter feelings at that time.

•••

Stan is "pretending" nothing. He and Kirby worked under the same conditions. Neither owned what they produced for Marvel, neither had any expectations of such when they produced that work. Stan's expression of lack of understanding is genuine -- how could Kirby complain so bitterly about cirumstances which he fully understood going in, and, indeed, compelled others to operate under when he was the "boss"?

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Pascal LISE
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Posted: 16 September 2007 at 7:16am | IP Logged | 16  

The "adult" having lost all sense of wonder, to the point of viewing the
whole genre with a sense of ennui bordering on contempt?

Curious, now. How many other things from your childhood do you want
to see "updated for the adult"? Do you seek out gourmet babyfood?
Tricycles built to adult scale? Kid's cartoons "reimagined" with an adult
slant? Adult sizes of the fashions you wore?

***
I certainly didn't lost all sense of wonder. If this was the case, I wouldn't
still be reading modern Superheroes comics nowaday (although very few
now).
As I wrote, I enjoyed 1963 as an entertaining experience and certainly not
as something I'm looking for because I need to fill a severe case of
nostalgia.
I stopped eating baby food long time ago but with time I grew a different
undertanding and appreciation for some ot the work I used to like as a
kid, yours included Mr. Byrne

Edited by Pascal LISE on 16 September 2007 at 7:18am
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Pascal LISE
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Posted: 16 September 2007 at 7:40am | IP Logged | 17  

how could Kirby complain so bitterly about cirumstances which he fully
understood going in, and, indeed, compelled others to operate under when
he was the "boss"?

***
Mebbe because Kirby believed that he deserved better from a compagny for
which he did so much valuable creations ?
A body of work largely unmatched amongst his peers ?


Edited by Pascal LISE on 16 September 2007 at 7:41am
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 16 September 2007 at 7:50am | IP Logged | 18  

Mebbe because Kirby believed that he deserved better from a compagny for
which he did so much valuable creations ?

*****************

But, why would he believe that all of a sudden? At that point, he had already created so much before the Marvel stuff. Why was this a point of contention all of a sudden? He had worked in this industry for 40 years under the same rules. Why would he feel he was deserving of something he had previously not? As JB mentioned, he was even the BOSS of other artists using these same rules.

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Pascal LISE
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Posted: 16 September 2007 at 8:05am | IP Logged | 19  

The comic industry changed under the pression of those willing to change it.
Kirby probably did what he could for what he believed in.
Considering the stage of his career and his importance in Marvel success
wouldn't it be tempting to try and change for better ?

Edited by Pascal LISE on 16 September 2007 at 8:06am
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John Byrne
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Posted: 16 September 2007 at 8:14am | IP Logged | 20  

The comic industry changed under the pression of those willing to change it. Kirby probably did what he could for what he believed in.

•••

When Kirby had his own company, he had a chance to strike a huge and unmistakable blow for "creator's rights". Instead, he ran it just as everybody else did -- no credits, no royalties, no return of artwork.

Laud Kirby with every bit of praise he duly deserves -- but not this. In this battle, his stance became the all too common "You mean the rules apply to ME?"

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Brian Miller
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Posted: 16 September 2007 at 8:16am | IP Logged | 21  

If he was trying to change things for all artists, including himself, I would understand. From what you are presenting, Pascal, hes was just trying to change something because he felt he contributed more than anyone else. I've never gotten that vibe from anything I've read concerning this issue and I have a hard time believing it. Was Kirby that egotistical?
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John Young
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Posted: 16 September 2007 at 8:26am | IP Logged | 22  

The reading of comics is not nostalgia for me, its the joy of a story with action, adventure, drama, and fun.
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Francesco Vanagolli
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Posted: 16 September 2007 at 8:33am | IP Logged | 23  

1963 is one of those things I'd like to read.

A friend of mine told me sometimes that "Alan Moore doesn't write stories WITH superheroes, but ABOUT superheroes. He wants to analyze, not to tell a story.". Even if I don't dislike Moore's works (in fact, I loved WATCHMEN and his last Superman story), I agree with him. 

Talking about "retro" comics, I suggest SPIDER-GIRL and, why not, the GENERATIONS trilogy.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 16 September 2007 at 8:34am | IP Logged | 24  

Was Kirby that egotistical?

••

Yes. We all are.
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Pascal LISE
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Posted: 16 September 2007 at 9:27am | IP Logged | 25  

If he was trying to change things for all artists

***

Yes. We all are.

***

Indeed we are egotistical.

But I didn't mean he was consciously trying to change the industry.
More like at one point in his life he probably felt like he didn't get what he
deserved and he tried to obtain it for himself.
So what ? Who says that Kirby shouldn't have and try to obtain more for
his contributions ?
Because he bent under the rules before ?
Consider what Marvel made out of its artists's work and compare to what
they did recieve.

The point is not about :
Did he make a difference in the industry change or not ?
He fought for himself with whatever results but, at least, he did.
He just didn't accept the statut quo anymore and, whatever his reasons,
it's something respectful for me especially in regards of his achievements
in the industry.
That, before that, he had people working for him under the same rules
decades
ago just prooves that in order to change the comic industry,
the men working for it needed to change first.

It's called growing up.

Edited by Pascal LISE on 16 September 2007 at 10:39am
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