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Topic: JBF Reading Club: Fantastic Four #286 (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Matt Hawes
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Posted: 17 September 2007 at 11:50am | IP Logged | 1  

 JB wrote:
...Then I announced I was going to do Superman, and suddenly chunks of it had to be redrawn by Jackson Guice and rewritten by Claremont.

Which is why I had my name taken off it...

It was really disingenous of Shooter to use the credit "You know who," as if we fans were too stupid to realize there was a change in art and story on several pages. I knew right off the bat that something was different. In fact, I believe I had the art pegged as being Jackson Guice.

JB, do you think that Claremont's whole deal with making the Phoenix a benevolent force, and Jean the corruptor, stems from his having had a hand in creating Phoenix, so it was "his" character, while Jean was not?

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Brian Peck
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Posted: 17 September 2007 at 11:55am | IP Logged | 2  

You, me and a few others might have known the flashback wasn't by John
but when I show people my two unpublished pages from the issue. Tell the
story of it being redrawn and rewriten by someone else they are surprised.
With Terry having such a strong inking style he did help mask that it was a
different penciler.
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Sam Karns
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Posted: 17 September 2007 at 12:09pm | IP Logged | 3  

Good Luck, Brian.  I heard about the controversy for quite sometime, and I'm glad you're willing to step up the plate to push forward on this restoration.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 17 September 2007 at 12:20pm | IP Logged | 4  

It was really disingenous of Shooter to use the credit "You know who," as if we fans were too stupid to realize there was a change in art and story on several pages.

•••

Again, that wasn't Shooter, that was me. It was my "homage" to Jim Steranko, who'd had his name removed from an issue of X-MEN, and replaced with "Do We Really Have to Tell You?".

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CJ Grebb
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Posted: 17 September 2007 at 12:21pm | IP Logged | 5  

Shooter didn't insist on the crossover.

****
Amazing how easily I made that assumption - in two weeks the story will go that Shooter held the two of you at gunpoint to get you to do it, and I'll have no one to blame but myself for starting yet another incorrect, internet-fueled "Dark Overlord Jim Shooter" legend.

Any idea how they were planning on bringing Jean back if it HADN'T been in the FF?


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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 17 September 2007 at 12:28pm | IP Logged | 6  

Well jeez-

NOW this story finally makes sense to me.  Seeing Jean Grey force the Phoenix force to take her identity by using her psychic abilities at the very last moment has drama, character and heroism.

The printed version had the feeling of a parenthetical.  I never warmed to X-Factor, and never felt an emotional attachment to the returned Jean.

These "lost" pages provide what I was missing-- the sacrifice and heroism that would mean the Phoenix character I had loved was a burning avatar of what was great about Jean Grey-- while the real Jean Grey was still alive and allowed to return.

With the "mother of stars" phoenix, the result is that Phoenix and Jean Grey became too similar for me to grasp the distinction.  I knew Phoenix had been a copy and Jean was now alive-- but it felt contrived to me without these vital elements of conflict, sacrifice and heroism.

Thanks to the posters of these pages-- I feel something terrific has been restored for me.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 17 September 2007 at 12:30pm | IP Logged | 7  

JB, do you think that Claremont's whole deal with making the Phoenix a benevolent force, and Jean the corruptor, stems from his having had a hand in creating Phoenix, so it was "his" character, while Jean was not?

••

The whole idea of turning Phoenix into a villain sprang from her getting more and more "screen time", effectively turning the X-Men into fifth wheels in their own book. I complained about it. The editors complained about it. Shooter complained about it. But Chris kept turning up the Phoenix power, even in scenes I specifically drew hoping he would not be able to.

Finally it was Steven Grant who said "Why not just make her a villain?" Chris embraced this idea instantly. I can still remember the call when he told me what we were now going to do. I was resistant at first, but soon saw that any kind of status quo being restored to UNCANNY X-MEN would mean sacrificing Jean. And, there were plenty of ways she could be "redemed" later, if need be. I suggested Mastermind as the engine by which the "evilization" could be accomplished.

So Chris started setting up the Phoenix as an evil entity, held in check by Jean's humanity, until Mastermind corrupted Jean, and unleashed the true face of the Phoenix.

But then Shooter decided Phoenix had to die. We had told him about the destruction of the "asparagus people", and he had okayed it (he now claims he was not paying attention -- excellent doing of your fucking job there, big guy!), but when the pages came in he said no, no, no, she's a killer, she must be punished.

As I have mentioned elsewhere, "punished" meant taken to a prison asteroid and horribly tortured for all eternity. To that I said "No way!" (in somewhat more colorful language), "I'd sooner kill her!" So the ending of 137 was redone, and Phoenix died.

And that's when the trouble really started. Because Chris could not let it go. "Why did Phoenix have to die, but Galactus doesn't?" he demanded. I pointed to the Watcher's famous speech about Galactus not being evil, while Phoenix, we had established, was. So Chris started his unending campaign to make Phoenix "good" and human nature "evil". This gave us the unapproved appearance of the FF in X-MEN, so Lilandra can read the riot act to Reed. (This also gave us Shooter once more at his most hypocritical: "Thou shalt not use other office's characters without permission!" But they used the FF without permission! "Tough. Write a story about it.")

And so it went, and so it goes.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 17 September 2007 at 12:31pm | IP Logged | 8  

Any idea how they were planning on bringing Jean
back if it HADN'T been in the FF?

•••

They weren't. It was me, in my innocence, who went
into Shooter's office one day and said "I hear you're
planning to do a new book with the original X-Men.
There's a way to get Jean back, if you want her."
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Brian Peck
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Posted: 17 September 2007 at 12:39pm | IP Logged | 9  

JB,
Even with everyone mucky with Jean, I am glad you (and a number of others)
brought her back. Of course now she has been "killed" a few times after
that, wonder when she will be back.


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Sam Karns
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Posted: 17 September 2007 at 12:41pm | IP Logged | 10  

Never knew the EGOs were so huge even in the comic industry.  That was madness, I can see why you were upset at times; they would rather do what they want than do what was established.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 17 September 2007 at 1:24pm | IP Logged | 11  

Even since seeing the unpublished pages here on this site some time ago, I've vastly preferred the original version of the story. Phoenix is inherently evil, but Jean uses her psi-powers to imprint her own personality on Phoenix so as to turn it into a true duplicate of her. And that copy proves to have Jean's own courage in the end, when it kills itself to save the universe.

Brilliant. And way better than "Hi, I'm Phoenix! I'm going to heal you and then turn myself into a dupilcate of you--with a part of your consciousness inside me at no extra charge!"



Edited by Greg Kirkman on 17 September 2007 at 1:25pm
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John Byrne
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Posted: 17 September 2007 at 1:32pm | IP Logged | 12  

I have long maintained that the Jean who died on the Moon being a copy made the story even stronger. Many fans, alas, cannot see this (since it means change, and change is evil unless they approve). They would rather have the human spirit be weak and corrupt, and have poisoned the Phoenix force, than have it be so strong that even a copy could compell the Phoenix to do the right thing.

And I say this as someone who thinks human beings are basically, you know, animated pond scum.

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