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Christopher Alan Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 October 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 2787
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| Posted: 13 August 2008 at 3:38pm | IP Logged | 1
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The Russians would've mopped up Iraq? Are you really that clueless? They've been fighting in Chechnya for 14 years now. Chechnya has a population of a little over 1 million. This is the 6th time in 130 years that they've fought in Chechnya and their best success was when the deported the entire population to kazakhstan They sort of had their asses kicked in Afghanistan too. In terms of military power the US has a much greater lead over Russia than it ever did over the Soviet Union. Try doing some research on the state of the Russian military forces or just look at the pictures of the troops in Georgia right now. I see a lot of 40 year old armored vehicles, troops without helmets or any body armor, some wearing only pieces of uniforms. They're winning because they are taking on a much smaller and unprepared army.
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Blake Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 October 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 231
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| Posted: 13 August 2008 at 5:51pm | IP Logged | 2
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They sort of had their asses kicked in Afghanistan too.
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The Russians lost about 10000 troops.... They took out over a million Afghanis. Sure they got tired of it and pulled out, but I don't see that as getting their ass kicked.... That's a stalemate at best...
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Christopher Alan Miller
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Joined: 26 October 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 2787
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| Posted: 13 August 2008 at 6:12pm | IP Logged | 3
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They admitted to 15,000 dead and over 50,000 wounded. They also had a pro-soviet Afghan army fighting with them. I've never seen casualty estimates for them but would be surprised if they were less than Soviet losses.
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Blake Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 October 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 231
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| Posted: 13 August 2008 at 6:21pm | IP Logged | 4
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Okay 15000 dead. Over a million Afghan losses... Much better....
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Pedro Bouça
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 1465
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| Posted: 13 August 2008 at 6:27pm | IP Logged | 5
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They have pretty much WON in Chechenya by now. Combats and terrorist strikes against russian forces have been reduced to almost nothing. All original chechen leaders are dead, as are most of their immediate replacements.
As for its forces, they don't seem so bad to me:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7548715.stm
And note this is hardly the best the russian military has. This is 58th army, not a Guards formation or anything like that. It's supposed to have second-rate equipment! It's even using older model T-72s and BMP-1 AFVs, when the best russian forces have long ago upgraded to T-90s and BMP-3s. If the russians were so keen to invade Georgia, they would have sent one of those, wouldn't they?
Oh, and in case you were wondering, here is an old news report (from August 6th) saying that the formation was getting ready to go into South Ossetia if needed:
http://www.tol.cz/look/TOL/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPu blication=4&NrIssue=281&NrSection=1&NrArticle=19 821
So, again: It was noticed on major news sources (BBC!) that the russians had forces on the area ready to intervene. The georgians decided to make a major offensive against South Ossetia anyway, which caused lots of civilian deaths. Russians strike back, mop up georgian forces there and in the environments at the same time that their air force hits military targets around the country (some bombs hit civilian targets, but NATO forces have also done similar mistakes on the past, it's impossible to be 100% accurate!). The famous oil and gas pipelines that cross Georgia not even being touched! After that they get back to positions in the separatist area and declare a ceasefire. In just FOUR days!
And they are in the wrong?!? How is that different from what NATO did on Kosovo or in the first Iraqi war?
I'm not a fan of the current russian government, but I'm friggin' tired to see Russia ALWAYS being painted as the villian of the piece. Life is not maniqueist like comic books. The georgian president is hardly a nice guy and started this whole thing to submit under his authority a people that doesn't want to do so. Of course Putin didn't help them for humanitary reasons, but regardless of his reasons, he did a good job.
Edited by Pedro Bouça on 13 August 2008 at 6:29pm
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Michael Retour
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 May 2006
Posts: 932
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| Posted: 13 August 2008 at 6:29pm | IP Logged | 6
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Christopher,
The world where the United States was powerful is gone. It is not, except to the extent it has nuclear weapons. It lacks economic power and that is evident from Iraq to Katrina to our crumbling bridges, roads, rail, energy, health care, etc.
Just the housing crisis alone can destroy what is left of the US economy. You have no idea how many banks are insolvent and do you really believe the TV is going to announce it and have lines of people at banks all over the USA? Tell me again where the mighty US dollar is? In the toilet Christopher. The Canadian dollar is on par, or might be higher (I don't have time to check).
You long for a day that has passed and can't face it.
I imagine it was this way for many British "upper class" types as the British Empire fell from its heights. You know the type: the kind with "Sir" and "Duke" in front of their name when India won its independence.
You see what the media wants you to see. I see the president of Georgia betrayed by his ally George Bush and I see the West doing nothing at all to stop Russia (but then again Georgia attacked South Ossetia).
Israel has stopped selling arms to Georgia. Bush isn't sending any military support and Russia is allowing humanitarian aid to be flown in. I'd say that's very gracious of Russia.
Watch and see Europe continue their relationship with Russia economically and watch as Russia, China, India and other member of the SCO dominate this planet because most of the economic activity will be taking place in Eurasia. The Japanese will even get in on the economic action.
Russia has so much power and so many options here. This has changed the world. I think Putin may have prevented a world war and I am nominating him for the Nobel Peace Prize. He isn't a warmonger like Bush. Russia doesn't attack nations that haven't fired a single shot at them.
You want to delve into history Christopher? By all means lets do that.
Incidentally, the Iraqi resistance doesn't even have any tanks I am aware of and they have battled the USA to a standstill. The USA can't withdraw or Iraq becomes a Shia-dominated, Iran-allied state that perhaps descends into full scale civil war.
What troops would Bush fight Russia with? A draft? Ha ha, that I'd like to see attempted.
As people posted here, Americans (unlike most people in the world) actually thought our own Georgia was attacked.
America doesn't stand by its allies. By the time Condi arrives the Russians will have matters well under their control. The news broadcasts tonight said the Russians were only twelve miles from the Georgian capital.
I would agree with you that in the 1960s, perhaps, the US was stronger than the USSR but not by much. I don't believe anything short of nuclear war would have stopped the USSR from being at London's doorstep. That is why certain nuclear bombs were invented you know? The neutron bomb for example.
The West lost this one and Russia won so please spare me the "mom and apple pie" speeches because you seem to be watching Leave It To Beaver instead of realizing our military is weak and the world sees it.
We left an ally, Georgia, to be decimated and did nothing.
Shameful.
Yes, yes we can bomb nations. We have been at war in Iraq longer than we were at war during WW II (the USA not other nations) and we still haven't won. So, those bombs you believe are power really aren't.
Cheney must be chewing the rug right now. Then these impotent threats from the US. It would be laughable if not for the innocent lives the Georgians murdered.
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Christopher Alan Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 October 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 2787
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| Posted: 13 August 2008 at 7:28pm | IP Logged | 7
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It's a shame you weren't around in 1939 so you gleefully cheer on the Soviet invasions of Finland and Poland. And Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, and Romania in 1940.
The US lacks economic power? We have the #1 GDP in the world. Three times that of #2 Japan and 5 times that of Russia. Militarily it's the same. Russia has improved somewhat in recent years but lacks modern weapons and no longer has a large enough population to overwhelm anything but the smallest countries with numbers. Remember how well the Iragi army did with their Russsian weapons and tactics? Or the Arab Armies against Israel? Talk to me about history when you gain a grasp of it. And where did you get the idea that Georgia was our Ally? Can you tell me what treaty was signed promising that we would defend them from attack? It's a friendly country we were giving aid to like many others in the world.
Putin isn't a warmonger? You should get the job hosting the Tonight show. That's funnier than anything Leno has said in a decade.
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Michael Retour
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 May 2006
Posts: 932
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| Posted: 13 August 2008 at 7:45pm | IP Logged | 8
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GDP is a useless metric. Ask the Fed if they even use it. Hezbollah whipped Israel. Russia just delivered a love letter to Bush and Bush's jaw is still open wondering what he can do. The Russians know what Georgia is: a Western project that is now a failure. Christopher I am out of this one before it gets too intense. I've had my say and meant what I said.
Take care,
Mike
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Chris Durnell
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Joined: 26 February 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 1235
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| Posted: 13 August 2008 at 11:52pm | IP Logged | 9
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Well, things are not going so good. Russia is not adhering to the terms of its own cease fire agreement. Multiple news sources agree that Russian troops and South Ossetian irregular militia are sacking Gori. Furthermore, columns of Russian tanks and soldiers are advancing on Tblisi although there are conflicting reports on whether or not they have stopped.
The war has certainly set off a nerve in Russia. There are multiple reports that irregular Cossacks are heading to Abkhazia to assist militias there. Who the hell would have ever thought they'd hear warning that the Cossacks are coming? Furthermore, there are reports of men flocking south to pillage in the wake of the Russian army. Furthermore, these people are clearly stating that this is a war between the US and Russia. This is getting ugly.
In Tblisi are the heads of government and states of Ukraine, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia to show solidarity with Georgian President Saakashvili. I've even read a report from the Tehran Times that German Defense Minister has stated that this does not change the commitment made to Georgia that they will someday be part of NATO.
Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov has made a public threat/offer/plea (interpret it however you want) that the US must choose between a real partnership with Russia or an illusory partnership with Georgia. Bush has responded that the US stands by Georgia. US Hercules C-47 transports are carrying humanitarian aide into Tblisi. There are incomplete reports whether any other military assets are being mobilized to assist in the humanitarian effort.
I think it is now apparent to everyone involved that this has gone far beyond what anyone thought. I think this is not just a crisis, but a huge crisis that is beginning to develop a logic of its own regardless of the intent of the people involve.
I have read many reports about the conflict, and no one knows what is going on. On previous occassions, people could always agree on the facts of what happened regardless of their spin on it. Instead, no one clearly knows what is going on and therefore are guessing wildly on what will happen next.
This is a very dangerous situation. I hope both Bush and Putin have recently read the Guns of August by Barbara Tuchman.
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Joe Zhang
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Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 14 August 2008 at 12:16am | IP Logged | 10
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Reality check : if Castro suddenly bombed Puerto Rico, we'd hit Cuba so hard that large parts of the island would sink. The Georgians elected a rather naive man for president and now they're paying for it. We pay for our own mistakes, that's how Democracy works.
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Monte Gruhlke
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Joined: 03 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3303
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| Posted: 14 August 2008 at 9:55am | IP Logged | 11
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Chris, that's quite a reach to think that Bush an read a book. :-)
I agree with Joe that we'd rush to Puerto Rico's defense, but I don't see why we should; they have systematically voted down statehood for years. You shouldn't be able to get the perks of the USA without paying taxes or joining the union. If they get invaded, suddenly they would want the benefit of our armed forces? Ha. Ha, I say.
Aside from strategic locations, Georgia simply doesn't have anything that would cause Bush to commit forces to it. We wouldn't 'gain' anything by it. Which is one of the main reasons why the US has ignored Darfur.
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