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Robin Taylor
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 1260
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| Posted: 12 August 2008 at 9:47pm | IP Logged | 1
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We already invaded the US and you didn't even notice. Hollywood is one of our largest cities.
And we kicked the US's ass the last time we went to war with them :)
RT
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Chris Durnell
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 February 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 1235
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| Posted: 12 August 2008 at 10:43pm | IP Logged | 2
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As has been stated, there is now a cease fire in place. A cease fire is not an end to war, just a stop to hostilities, and there is not a permanent cease fire yet. That may not happen until later. I don't think the war will resume, but you never know. Once everything calms down, we'll see if any troops actually leave. I think French President Sarkozy did the best he could. Good man.
While Russia has made statements to respect the territorial integrity of Georgia, Russian President Mevedev has also ominously stated, ""sovereignty is based on the will of the people" and "territorial
integrity can be demonstrated by the actual facts on the ground." The actual facts on the ground is huge number of Russian troops who - if they do leave South Ossetia - will make sure the Ossetians are armed to the teeth. The situation in Abkhazia is unknown, but it seems a foregone conclusion that Georgia's territorial borders will be changed.
The only good thing in this is that it appears Saakashvili will not be deposed. Given Putin's previous comments, and comments by Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov that Saakhasvili should step down, but that Russia will not force the issue, I think it highly likely his deposition was a Russian war aim. The Georgians, despite losing, may have put up a good enough fight to prevent a fait acompli. We'll see how Russia (I do not think the question is "if") attempts to depose him in the aftermath through less direct means.
Not sure what the next actions will be. Georgia has announced that it is officially leaving the Commonwealth of Independent States, the successor union of the USSR. It will be interesting to see if Ukraine continues its associate status with the CIS, or if it too will leave it. Furthermore, I am sure there will be some sort of response by the US and Europe int heir policy towards Russia, although what I can't imagine at this point. It is unlikely a Membership Action Plan for NATO will be presented to Georgia anytime soon, but it is still plausible something will be given to Georgia to assist it provided there is no more adventurism.
I am very surpised and shocked at the glee some forum members are showing at the way Russia has bullied Georgia. Georgia, for all its faults, is now a democracy - as a direct result of Saakashvili - with a much improved record of combatting corruption, instituting the rule of law, and liberalizing speech. Furthermore, it is completely within its rights to restore its territorial integrity, no matter what the wisdom of provoking Russia.
In contrast, Russia has totally abandoned democracy, freedom of speech, and the rule of law. It is a potemkin democracy following the form, but in essence a dictatorial state run by Putin and corrupt siloviki. It regularly steals businesses and arrest those who compalin about it. Journalists have been routinely murdered there, and true political opposition (not the impotent and potemkin "opposition" of the Communists and Zhironovsky's fascists who vote with Putin on all important matters and have maxed out their potential votes and present no threat to his rule) is harassed and beaten. It has engaged in grotesque assassinations on foreign soil (the sick polonium murder of Litvinenko in the UK), and probably the attempted assassination by dioxin against President Yuschenko of Ukraine. It's "peacekeeping" forces in Georgia subverted any attempts at true reconciliation, and it has routinely violated Georgian sovereignty by its actions there. That is the true context of the Russian-Georgian War.
And while countries often have many war plans, it goes without saying that those plans are not operational most of the time. The US had war plans to go to war with Canada, UK, France, Mexico, and anyone else in 1941, but FDR certainly couldn't have launched an invasion within 24 hours even if he wanted to. Those Russian troops were prepared to go in, because Russia always intended to go in. And Russia's provocations of Georgia in the past few months are proof of that. No doubt Saakashvili foolishly gave them their pretext on a silver platter, but they would have found another one. If you don't believe that, then you probably take Stalin's word in 1939 that his invasion of Poland was to "protect the Ukrainian nationals" rather than part of a secret deal with Hitler to divine Eastern Europe between them.
Despite the claims by some here, Russia did not start its antagonistic behavior over NATO expansion (although I admit it was unpopular), but with the peaceful democratic revolutions in Ukraine and Georgia which saw the fall of corrupt and murdering regimes. It was at that moment, not before, that saw Putin and the siloviki begin a very harsh anti-Western posture. Putin feared that Russians might be encouraged to demand an accountable government and an end to corruption. That caused him to lash out not only against any democratic forces in Russia, but attempt to put them under siege anywhere in the former Soviet Union, especially in Ukraine (tacit support of the old corrupt oligarchs there, sudden price increases on gas supplies when democratic forces took power, renewed claims - contrary to international law - that Crimea was Russian, not Ukrainian, and refusal to negotiate honestly on the Black Sea Fleet's bases in Sevastapol) and Georgia (shooting down Georgian aerial vehicles, missile launches, giving Russian passports to Georgian citizens, refusing to remove troops from Georgian soil).
It is one thing to say that Russia is ruled by corrupt thugs, and that if you want to involve yourself in that playground you need to bring a gun as well as a kind word. (I certainly think President Bush has been extremely naive and incompetent) It's another to put the blame on the victim and relish a gangster's flaunting of power. Truly disgusting.
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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 12 August 2008 at 11:11pm | IP Logged | 3
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My guess is that Putin will make Georgia and the West pay dearly for Saakashvili's defeat. I wouldn't be surprised if the Abkhazians pressed south and seized Georgia's coastline. That would put all the westward Caspian Sea oil pipelines in Russia's hands.
Edited by Joe Zhang on 12 August 2008 at 11:13pm
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Christopher Alan Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 October 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 2787
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| Posted: 13 August 2008 at 12:11am | IP Logged | 4
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It is a new world and the US isn't Top Dog anymore.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Please enlighten us and tell us who the top dog is.
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Michael Retour
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 May 2006
Posts: 932
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| Posted: 13 August 2008 at 8:32am | IP Logged | 5
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Christopher,
In terms of having the most nuclear weapons? The US. Are we scaring Russia because we have them? No. In fact, I'd say the Russians are doing just fine. Europe will continue to trade with them and the economic "action" in the world is in Eurasia and Russia and China are getting most of the contracts there.
Shock and awe, shock and awe, shock and awe! That didn't do a lot in terms of subduing the Iraqis did it.
The US is not "Top Dog" measured in other metrics. Look at other stats on life expectancy, health care, rail, infrastructure, education and the US does not lead in any of those. That sort of information is easy to find on the web but you being American means you have a bias doesn't it? You seem to think we're the most powerful nation on Earth because we have nuclear weapons. Okay, then let's see Bush start WW III.
The US could do nothing to stop Russia. Nothing. Georgia will never be admitted to NATO now and the rest of the "near abroad" has learned the US does not stand by their allies. My my, how the world has changed.
The US is a declining power. Russia and China and ascending and they are quite old. We had our ideals and our Constitution and Declaration but in my opinion we gave it all away.
I don't want to get into the current Iraq war but we did invade a sovereign nation that had not attacked us so who are we to lecture Russia? Georgia acted, not Russia -- Russia responded and I only wish they would continue until the West's puppet, like the Shah of Iran was, is deposed. Putin hit the nail on the head.
We are quite far from the powerhouse we were after WW II. When you can't even get your soldiers proper equipment to fight a little Third World nation what do you call that? Power? I call it pathetic. Do you declare Iraq a victory because we deposed Hussein? Is that power? We lost far more than we gained.
You're from the USA right? Ever read European newspapers? Italy, Germany and France are blaming Georgia. Western Europe sees Russia as a partner, Eastern Europe sees Russia as a threat. Ukraine can be cut off of energy supplies by Russia at any moment Russia chooses. Then what? Will Bush come to Ukraine's aid? No he won't. He didn't even leave the Olympics when Georgia, on the prodding of the warmongers, invaded South Ossetia. The most Bush might do is lob a few bombs on Iran before he shuffles off into history.
Russia knows there is a foreign hand in this and it isn't Adam Smith's.
Power is economic infrastructure and the ability, through logistics, to deliver it. We don't have that anymore. Our trains don't even run on time, much less what is left of our once proud airlines. Look at the flooding and our inability, because of decaying infrastructure, to control rivers.
Sorry for the ramble but it is early and the first cup of mud for me.
EDIT: Whether or not this is true or not I don't know but MSNBC's webpage is reporting Russian tanks are rolling deeper in Georgia. Perhaps Russia will stop once they hit the Black Sea? What will Bush do? Nothing.
-------------------------------------------
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26116598/
Soldiers waved at journalists and one soldier shouted, perhaps
jokingly, to a photographer: "Come with us, beauty, we're going to
Tbilisi!"
Separatists mock 'American training'
To the
west, Abkahzian separatist forces backed by Russian military might
pushed out Georgian troops and even moved into Georgian territory
itself, defiantly planting a flag and laughing that retreating
Georgians had received "American training in running away."
Edited by Michael Retour on 13 August 2008 at 8:50am
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Knut Robert Knutsen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 September 2006
Posts: 7374
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| Posted: 13 August 2008 at 11:52am | IP Logged | 6
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Gee. I'm gone from the board for 3 days and peace erupts. bummer.
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David Ferguson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2007
Location: Ireland
Posts: 6782
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| Posted: 13 August 2008 at 12:30pm | IP Logged | 7
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Denmark is top dog for happiness
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Christopher Alan Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 October 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 2787
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| Posted: 13 August 2008 at 12:35pm | IP Logged | 8
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That list seems a bit strange. Columbia ranks #3? Puerto Rico #2?
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Michael Retour
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 May 2006
Posts: 932
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| Posted: 13 August 2008 at 12:51pm | IP Logged | 9
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Christopher,
I am not trying to be provacactive but do you actually believe the United States is anything the founders imagined it would be today? Didn't Franklin say "You have a republic if you can keep it" or words to that effect?
We don't have any high speed rail whatsoever and I asked an engineer one time about it and he asked me why we even need rail anymore! He was not a railroad engineer but for moving freight water is the cheapest and rail is needed for a nation this size. Trucks are meant for short-haul.
China has mag-lev trains. They are planning to put them all over China. Russia has the same plans and the German firm Siemens is helping both nations build them. We will be importing mag-lev and Americans will be whining about it. I believe the average age of an Amtrak car is 24-26 years.
The US ranks 37th in health, right after Costa Rica and before Slovenia, according to the WHO. Now, one can be very wealthy and get better health care but for the bottom 80% of working people they can't.
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
I don't know what year that is from but if anything we've slipped.
In infant mortality we rank 37 too, right after South Korea and right before Croatia.
http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_Infant_Mortality_ Rate_aall.htm
Incidentally, the Russians are on the move and Bush has sent Condi to help. I am sure "Vlad" is terrified of Condi Rice.
Cheers!
Edited by Michael Retour on 13 August 2008 at 12:51pm
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Christopher Alan Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 October 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 2787
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| Posted: 13 August 2008 at 1:47pm | IP Logged | 10
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I'm still waiting to hear who the top dog is.
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Kevin Hagerman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 April 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 17997
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| Posted: 13 August 2008 at 1:47pm | IP Logged | 11
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America ain't been the same since Michael Anthony left Van Halen.
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Michael Retour
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 May 2006
Posts: 932
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| Posted: 13 August 2008 at 3:22pm | IP Logged | 12
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Christopher in what? The top in what? The US ranks below many countries in many measures. We're not "top dog" anymore. We lost that probably 20-30 years ago.
I don't know where you live, what you do, or what sort of USA you live in but the one I live in (at the age of 51) isn't even close to the power it was when I was a child.
Be specific or quit with the games. Top in what? Health care? Nope. Militarily? Nope. A ragtag band of guerrillas has us bogged down in Iraq and I am not talking about Planet of the Apes. The Russians would have mopped them up already like they are doing the Georgian terrorists.
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