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Topic: Jim Shooter: The Origin of the Dark Phoenix Saga Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 02 June 2011 at 6:01pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

The impact of the original idea would have been much better for the industry in the long run if it avoided the now constant efforts to do "important" stories like Death of the Phoenix.

But it would mean swapping out the Phoenix's return and Jean's heroic self-sacrifice for an ending of complete defeat at the hands of the Shi'ar.

You can read approximately what was intended in Phoenix the Untold Story (with a few odd editorial changes). Nice stuff, but not quite as unforgettable as what was acctually published.

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Martin Redmond
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Posted: 02 June 2011 at 6:15pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

I would've rather she got control back instead of quitting.

Shooter's idea of having her tortured for eternity appals me. Not only because torture is unethical. Let's look at the context of what Jean did, Mastermind and the Hellfire Club had been continually drugging her against her will. So Jean didn't have much judgement here. She sure didn't plan to do all this. It's a situation in which she needed help and could've been corrected with non violent means. Especially not a lobotomy. That's awful.

I still dislike the DPS ending a whole lot, but I grew to be a big fan of both Claremont and Byrne (seperated from each other) anyway.



Edited by Martin Redmond on 02 June 2011 at 6:16pm
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Larry Morris
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Posted: 02 June 2011 at 6:24pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

I think something like this came up awhile back.  I mean about Jean's power levels in the Silver Age.  I remember posting something about it.I still think that the Thomas/Adams version can hold her own with any member of the team.  She's no damsel in distress.  Just pick up with those power levels when the new book started.  Of course it depends on what they were looking for.  That Jean would not have been the team powerhouse that Phoenix was.

You don't need Phoenix for Jean to be very formidable on her own.  X Factor and the 90s proved that.  That character can't take out Magneto or Apocalypse by herself either.  Good, I say.  If she can, what is the rest of the team for?

I like Jean Grey.  Jean Grey was my favorite female member of the X Man, not Phoenix. My affection for Jean Grey wasn't in looking for stories that explored her dark side or urges.  The original Hellfire Club story is her scaring the shit out of their guards as well as Scott and Ororo.  To each his own.  That is not what I'm looking for from Jean Grey.

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Gene Best
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Posted: 02 June 2011 at 6:52pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

At the time, Dark Phoenix's death almost hit me as hard as Gwen Stacy's - which is a credit to the storytelling, as I hadn't followed X-Men with the dedication I'd followed ASM.  Both back stories are fascinating. 
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Craig Robinson
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Posted: 03 June 2011 at 6:53am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

I read the Shooter article... and laughed.  No matter what arithmetic he uses to calculate his worth for this story, Dark Phoenix will go down in history *synonymous with Claremont & Byrne.  Otherwise, we'd still be celebrating Homer's ILIAD editor.. oh, what was his name?  Exactly.

The Postal Service might as well take credit for having a hand in it.  "Well, we delivered it." 

This is a bit of a non sequitur, but I happened upon the third X-Men film on the television last night.  It's the first time I've seen it since I started interacting with JB on this site.  And I have to say, it's uncomfortable to watch now.  I dunno what metaphor most aptly captures that feeling, but I'm fairly certain that in the future, it will be it's own metaphor: "Oh man, that's like watching X-Men The Last Stand after you've talked to John Byrne!"

*I actually misspelled this on my first pass, but ironically, could not think of a similar word (to use instead).



Edited by Craig Robinson on 03 June 2011 at 7:31am
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John Byrne
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Posted: 03 June 2011 at 7:07am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

This is a bit of a non sequitur, but I happened upon the third X-Men film on the television last night. It's the first time I've seen it since I started interacting with JB on this site. And I have to say, it's uncomfortable to watch now. I dunno what metaphor applies to that feeling, but I'm fairly certain that in the future, it will be it's own metaphor: "Oh man, that's like watching X-Men The Last Stand after you've talked to John Byrne!"

••

I merely join a long line of creators who have seen their works ravaged by Hollywood. A while back I posted a link to the original Edison Studios version of "Frankenstein". It bore absolutely no resemblance to the original story. Mary Shelley did not live to see that mangling of her work, of course, but it is significant to note that the Hollywood attitude goes back a long, long way. Once someone gets it into their heads that "changes must be made" in translating one form into another, it seems all the stops are pulled out, and the changes become more important than any pretense of fidelity.

William Goldman address this in one of his books about writing for Hollywood -- and what it almost painfully ironic is that he demonstrates using one of his own stories how changes HAVE TO BE made, while at the same time complaining about the changes a different writer made to one of his novels when brining it to the screen.

X-MEN got off on entirely the wrong foot, and it has been downhill at an ever increasing speed since then.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 03 June 2011 at 7:08am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

*I actually misspelled this on my first pass, but ironically, could not think of a similar word.

••

How is that ironic?

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Michael Penn
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Posted: 03 June 2011 at 7:18am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Shooter's story sounds like a lot of alibis I heard back when I was practicing criminal law: a mask of surrounding detail but the actions of the people involved not quite believable, particularly since everybody BUT the one explaining what happened acted agitated and unsure. Shooter, the calm voice of reason, but Claremont and Byrne, angry and confused.

Chris stormed into my office and said that there was only one answer--they'd have to kill Phoenix. I said fine.



I don't think he expected me to say that, since killing characters just wasn't done in those days. Chris waffled a bit, but then I became insistent! She's dying. That's it.



Chris left my office, obviously found a phone somewhere and, a few minutes later, I got a call from John that started with him asking me if I was insane.



I don't buy it...
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John Byrne
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Posted: 03 June 2011 at 7:22am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

"Chris left my office, obviously found a phone somewhere and, a few minutes later, I got a call from John that started with him asking me if I was insane.

"

"Found a phone somewhere." In the Marvel Offices. Where there was a phone about every three feet.

THIS is why I don't read what Shooter writes.

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Craig Robinson
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Posted: 03 June 2011 at 7:23am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

I couldn't think of word synonymous with synonymous.  It's ironic in the Alanis Morissette sense.
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Pascal LISE
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Posted: 03 June 2011 at 8:25am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

In fact, the Dark Phœnix was a success thanks to ME.

Because I paid for it and read it.
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Kevin Brown
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Posted: 03 June 2011 at 8:35am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

While I doubt I was the only person to think about it after reading Jean's death, I figured she'd be back relatively soon since her "code name" was Phoenix.

Anyway, JB's version of what happened and how it all went down is the version I've always heard, even from other creators.  Shooter's re-writing of history is a new one to me.  It just strikes me as someone jumping up and down while waving their arms as they scream, "hey look at me!!"

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