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Topic: Something Old, Something Not-So-New - 08.13.11 Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 14 August 2011 at 5:21pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Great commission. I always loved JB's Havok!

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Michael Todd
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Posted: 14 August 2011 at 7:08pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply


 QUOTE:
both were eventually mucked up -- Angel almost immediately.

You mean by changing the color?

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Chris Wood
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Posted: 14 August 2011 at 8:50pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

JB, I suspect that you're correct in your assessment that the younger generations of artists doesn't want to challenge itself by drawing Havok as Neal did, although I also think it's possible that they insist on putting their own stamp on a character, even when their version is far inferior.

Another example, as previously noted, is the Angel. Neal's version is perfection, in my mind. And yet, how many variations have we seen over the years, none of which compares with Neal's?
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John Byrne
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Posted: 15 August 2011 at 4:38am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Neal's Angel costume is almost like a mini-lesson in all the things that can go wrong with a design as it is passed from artist to artist. Don Heck was the first artist other than Neal to draw it, and he got it right (in X-MEN 64). There, Tom Palmer was still the inker, so we cannot be sure how much was Don, how much Tom. Two issues later, however, Sal Buscema drew the suit, with Sam Grainger inks, and suddenly the configuration of the white to black areas were completely wrong. Not long after, with the book canceled, the X-Men were back in their school uniforms, and the costume was spared any further indignities for a while.

Next time the costume shows up, Angel is not even wearing it! In AVENGERS 110 we learn that Magneto was up to no good (duh!) when he put Angel into the new suit, and now is wearing it himself for various arcane reasons. Here the costume begins the seemingly inevitable downward spiral of black-with-blue-highlights costumes, as the blacks are left off, and the costume is purely blue and white. His black leather boots have also turned to white cloth.

A while later, Angel is pegged as a member of the new Champions team, but the Powers that Were at Marvel decide there are too many characters wearing black in the group (the others were the Black Widow and Ghost Rider, both of whom had somehow managed to avoid turning blue, despite the highlights on their outfits), so Angel's suit becomes red, with yellow gloves and boots. (Tho not immediately. First he had to revert to a version of the red and yellow costume he'd worn in his Avenging Angel days.) For unknown reasons the boots become leather again, but with yellow highlights, giving us another of those colors-not-found-in-nature so common in comics. It was around this time I became artist on the book, so at least I was able to draw Neal's version of the costume, and since I was working in black and white the color scheme didn't concern me.

The blacks start dropping off this version of the costume pretty fast, tho, once I'm gone, and once the book is canceled, and pretty soon it's pure red. The boots stop being leather again, too.

Typically, hardly any of these changes are deliberate choices. Really, only the switch from black/blue to red qualifies there. The rest are a string of typical goofs that become cannon, as each artist or colorist in line refers only to the most recent previous appearance, right or wrong.

One of the joys of HIDDEN YEARS, of course, was getting to draw the real suit, with the right colors!

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Chris Wood
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Posted: 16 August 2011 at 5:11pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Thanks for the background! I had always wondered about the return of Neal's version in the Champions (though it was red). It was a huge improvement over what you describe as a version of the "Avenging Angel" costume, though I was happy to see it eventually return to black/blue.

BTW, someone awhile back mentioned that you should write -- or perhaps had once begun -- a book about your career. I wholeheartedly agree.
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Ben Mcvay
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Posted: 16 August 2011 at 5:30pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

I would buy a copy of that book for sure.
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Tony Midyett
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Posted: 17 August 2011 at 12:10am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Beautiful piece, JB!  I love the fact that Havok has been largely immune to "the creeping blues".  My first exposure to the character was a Hulk story drawn by Marie Severin, and my second look at him was one of your Marvel Team-Up issues---I've always loved the character.  Great job!
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Paul Greer
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Posted: 19 August 2011 at 10:55am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Havok really stands out in this piece. Well done!
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John Byrne
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Posted: 19 August 2011 at 12:38pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

The thread I started about older movies containing more and more dead people, which promptly spun off into a general discussion of how we perceive the passing of the years, got me thinking about the title I chose for this thread.

Truth to tell, I hesitated over calling Havok "old", since, to me, he really is still one of the new guys. I "met" the character shortly after I returned to reading comics in the early Seventies, after a hiatus of about six years. A whole lot was "new" to me, then. The first issue of AMAZING SPIDER-MAN I bought trumpeted upon its cover the death of a character. It turned out to be Gwen Stacy, who I'd not seen before! The Green Goblin was new to me, too. The issue in which he'd made his debut had been one of the many I missed, due to the bad distribution in my part of Western Canada.

In a very short span of time, then, I met a lot of "new" characters, Havok among them, who became more or less permanently locked in my brain as "new" -- in much the same way I remained eternally eight years old to all my relatives who had last seen my at that age when my family left England.

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Peter Martin
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Posted: 01 September 2011 at 2:13pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Just about a perfect rendition of Havok. It's an amazingly striking costume -- and works so well in stark black and white.
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Manuel Soler
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Posted: 19 November 2011 at 8:01pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Ben Mcvay
said: This one is mine! It looks great! My favorite part is Havok's face. Wolverine looks awesome. 3 commissions down in this series...4 to go. 

If the series is of 7 commissions, I think the 7 classic X-Men are Cyclops, Iceman, Beast, Angel, Marvel Girl, Havok and Polaris. The 7 newer X-Men should be: Nightcrawler, Colossus, Wolverine, Storm, Sprite, Banshee and ? Who's the 7th: Sunfire? Thunderbird? Phoenix? Eh! Professor-X is left out! He could have been paired with Thunderbird walking him in his wheelchair.

 

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John Byrne
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Posted: 06 February 2012 at 3:04pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Poking thru the Gallery just now got me checking some dates. Havok made his costumed debut in the June 1969 cover dated issue of X-MEN (58), while Wolverine first showed up in THE INCREDIBLE HULK (181) for Nov. 1974. That's just a little over five years apart. Perhaps my thread title should have been "Something Old -- and Something Old!"
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