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Topic: What’s Good For The Goose...? (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Matt Hawes
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Posted: 22 November 2011 at 2:41pm | IP Logged | 1  

I was reading the latest installment of "Comic Book Urban Legends" and the story of how British comic book reporter and editor Phil Hall convinced Alan Moore to let Marvel Comics reprint Moore's Captain Britain stories. According to Hall, he wrote that Moore was not on friendly terms with him primarily due to something Hall had told Moore during a previous encounter.

 Phil Hall wrote:
...I’d upset him by saying I thought his Swamp Thing had pissed on the Wein/Wrightson creation and has he wanted to do some existential bullshit, he should have done it with something else...


I think Alan Moore has written some very fine comics, but I do tire of his hypocrisy about how Marvel/DC/Hollywood has shat over his "creations" (Especially considering that much of Alan Moore's comics are not totally original creations of his, but reworkings of previously existing characters and such).

He screams foul at his stories being messed with or changed, but why doesn't he feel the same about those people's works that he has tampered with? What would Wein, Wrightson, H.G. Wells, J.M. Barrie, Bram Stoker, Lewis Carroll, and so on and so forth think of what Moore has done to their work? Wein may not mind what happened to Swamp Thing as much as J.M. Barrie would react to how Wendy from "Peter Pan" was treated, but no matter the reactions from the original creators, isn't Moore doing to others that which he is mad about having done to him?

If Moore had a history of respecting the original creator's intent, I'd be behind him 100%, but he has never been respectful of the original creator's intent going back as far as Marvel Man, as far as I can tell.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 22 November 2011 at 2:48pm | IP Logged | 2  

Especially considering that much of Alan Moore's comics are not totally original creations of his, but reworkings of previously existing characters and such…

••

I've asked this before, and don't recall getting an answer. Has Moore actually created anything completely original? I realize that's almost a trick question, given that just about everything has been done before, and some thing many times over, but not being familiar with the entirity of Moore's oeuvre, I am curious. All I have ever seen are reworkings and pastiches. Is there anything else?

(And I suggest American readers might want to hold off on answering this, for a while. The last time I asked, there was a quick flurry of "V for Vendetta!" responses from this side of the Pond, American readers apparently not being familiar with Guy Fawkes -- or even 1984.)

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Valmor J. Pedretti
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Posted: 22 November 2011 at 3:22pm | IP Logged | 3  

I was very fond of his Tom Strong comic, which does have some classic adventure + science elements attached to it, although I fail to catch the precise references. A bit of Flash Gordon, Fantastic Four, I guess.

But this is a pretty good argument, Matt!

One could argue he didn't create anything new for Marvel/DC because he knew he wouldn't own it himself, but then later he did create some stuff of his own, but like you mentioned, it usually plays around known concepts.

Still dig his work, tho.


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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Posted: 22 November 2011 at 3:39pm | IP Logged | 4  

" What would Wein, Wrightson, H.G. Wells, J.M. Barrie, Bram Stoker, Lewis Carroll, and so on and so forth think of what Moore has done to their work? "

Len Wein is probably someone you should leave out of that list, as he was actually the editor of "Saga of the Swamp Thing" for 4-5 issues into Alan Moore's run and was the person responsible for approving or rejecting Moore's reinterpretation of the character. From what I read in interviews, the only objection he seemed to have to Moore's run was that he found the plots rather repetitive in their form. Something to the effect of "one plot, done over and over".

As for the others, it seems a fair bet that they would not approve.

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Matt Hawes
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Posted: 22 November 2011 at 3:46pm | IP Logged | 5  

Knut, my next sentence after the one you quoted started like this: (with new added emphasis) "...Wein may not mind what happened to Swamp Thing as much as J.M. Barrie would react to how Wendy from "Peter Pan" was treated..."
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 22 November 2011 at 3:47pm | IP Logged | 6  

I think Alan Moore has written some very fine comics, but I do tire of his
hypocrisy about how Marvel/DC/Hollywood has shat over his
"creations" (Especially considering that much of Alan Moore's comics
are not totally original creations of his, but reworkings of previously
existing characters and such).

------

Moore, while disdainful of Hollywood and doubtful as to the
appropriateness of his stories being adapted to the film medium, was
content to have the films exist as their own creation and have the
money go to the artists until 1) he was named and deposed in the
plagiarism suit against Fox over the LOEG movie, and 2) Joel Silver
lied and said that Moore was involved with the V FOR VENDETTA
movie. I don't see the hypocrisy. He thought Hollywood was shitting on
his stuff, but he was fine with that until it started involving him in the
shit.
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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Posted: 22 November 2011 at 5:31pm | IP Logged | 7  

"Knut, my next sentence after the one you quoted started like this: (with new added emphasis) "...Wein may not mind what happened to Swamp Thing as much as"

(first italic emphasis yours, second, bolded, emphasis mine)

Yes. Where you take the degree to which J.M.Barrie would mind his characters from a children's story being used in pornograpy and speculate that Wein's reaction might possibly be less negative. With the certain inference that he does mind to some lesser degree.

What I pointed out was that since Wein is the one who approved the initial, and most radical, change and since he did in fact have the power to reject it if he didn't like it, and has never disavowed it since (in fact - new information- at one time he supposedly proposed a new Swamp thing mini with Wrightson that would be based on Moore's redefinition of Swamp Thing) it seems inappropriate to speculate that he has any objections at all.

While there is a basis for inferring that some other authors may disapprove of Moore's take on their characters, there is none to suggest that Wein does, and ample evidence that he does approve.

Based on that, by including Wein with authors you presume will disapprove, even if you speculate that his disapproval will be less in degree, you are weakening the whole argument.

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Matt Hawes
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Posted: 22 November 2011 at 6:51pm | IP Logged | 8  

Okay, Knut, let's just ignore that I added Wein to the list so we can get back on track on what I was really addressing.
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Andrew W. Farago
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Posted: 22 November 2011 at 7:48pm | IP Logged | 9  

Do you have a specific source citing reasons for Moore's animosity toward his publishers?  His falling out with DC was, among other things, over the fact that he'd been promised a certain amount of input and revenue-sharing when it came to Watchmen, and that DC cut him out of the loop when it came to making buttons, figurines and other merchandise.  He may not like (or even have read) whatever followed his Swamp Thing run, but I don't think he's ever been under any illusion that he had any say or control in that particular character.

Where's the "hypocrisy" in Moore getting upset at the quote you posted?  Replace a few words in that quote and it sounds like complaints that people have leveled at JB and Man of Steel, or Frank Miller and Dark Knight, or pretty much any creator who revamps or relaunches an existing character.  Is getting annoyed at someone who criticizes your work in the middle of an otherwise pleasant conversation that unusual?
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John Byrne
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Posted: 22 November 2011 at 8:21pm | IP Logged | 10  

I was very fond of his Tom Strong comic, which does have some classic adventure + science elements attached to it, although I fail to catch the precise references. A bit of Flash Gordon, Fantastic Four, I guess.

••

TOM STRONG is a DOC SAVAGE pastiche, is it not?

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Valmor J. Pedretti
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Posted: 23 November 2011 at 6:30am | IP Logged | 11  

Nice one, JB! I wasn't familiar with Doc Savage at all, besides some old movie I saw as a kid. A little bit of gooling and yup, that was what Tom Strong was all about.
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Randy Lahey
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Posted: 23 November 2011 at 7:25am | IP Logged | 12  

I read an interview with Moore where he said the hollywood movies of his comics didn't bother him because the movie couldn't take away or change his comic.  His comic still existed as it did before the movie,  and you could still buy and read it.  It didn't matter to him what the movie was like.  He just didn't want to be associated with the movie or have his name used and he was lied to by some producers over using his name, and then he was dragged into a lawsuit over the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen film which he had nothing to do with and he didn't enjoy testifying in court.  It wasn't the actual films that got him angry, but some of the experiences/dealings he had with hollywood.   

Some people are able to use that same attitude towards movies/comics and some cannot.  Some people think a bad sequel ruins the original movie, while other people can still enjoy say The Matrix and ignore the 2nd Matrix movies while others cannot.  You can still buy and read the Wein/Wrightson issues of Swamp Thing even if you didn't like what Moore did to it.  I don't enjoy current DC/Marvel so I buy older DC/Marvel from the time period I did enjoy.  It can be hard to enjoy the X-men comics that I enjoyed 20 years ago, thinking about the mess the X-men are now, but I try to push it out of my head and enjoy the comic in front of me. 

edit to add Michael Roberts above did a better job posting what I was trying to say.


Edited by Randy Lahey on 23 November 2011 at 7:30am
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