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Topic: What is a Ret-Con? (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

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Posted: 17 March 2012 at 9:55am | IP Logged | 1  

I was having a conversation with a fan about Iron Man once. Now, I wanted to discuss topics such as how Iron Man would handle Doctor Octopus or what his best stories were, but this other fan wanted to discuss Vietnam and how the comics should deal with the fact that Stark couldn't be tied to that conflict forever due to it having taken place decades ago. It seemed to be an issue for him.

It wasn't an issue for me and never was. It's simple - don't mention it. I know that, unlike Reed's origins, Iron Man's origins are tied into a particular conflict, but it doesn't matter, anyway. No-ones ticking boxes on a calendar and counting down the days since Stark's origins, the Iron Man stories are simply there to be enjoyed.

••

When I was writing IRON MAN I retold his origin, specifically so I could get rid of the Vietnam references. I had Tony somewhere in Southeast Asia, but I did not say where. Nor did I make a specific reference to a war being fought there.

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Chris Basken
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Posted: 17 March 2012 at 10:36am | IP Logged | 2  

 John Byrne wrote:
The first time Spock's mixed blood is referenced, his human side derives from "one of my ancestors" marrying a human. An odd way for him to refer to his parents.

But technically accurate, so is it a retcon? I have no doubt the writers hadn't made up their minds about Spock's parentage at that point, but an in-universe explanation might be that Spock wasn't comfortable discussing intimate family matters to someone he only knew professionally (how long had Kirk been aboard the Enterprise at the timeframe of that episode?).

Another thing: A writer can cover a retcon with a reveal. For example, Bob is established to be an only child. Later in the story, Bob mentions being a twin (a retcon). The writer then later tells us Bob had repressed his memories of his twin due to "childhood trauma," but later rediscovered those memories through therapy (a reveal).

I imagine this kind of thing can layer upon itself until Crisis of the Infinite Earths happens...
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Garry Porter II
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Posted: 17 March 2012 at 12:54pm | IP Logged | 3  

I have a question:

Could the changes that Alan Moore made to Swamp Thing be considered a retcon?
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 17 March 2012 at 1:05pm | IP Logged | 4  

I'd say there are three categories:

 

REVEALS: Elements introduced so as to flesh out an existing mythology without contradicting anything that has come before. Alex Summers, the story of Peter Parker's parents, etc.

PASSIVE RETCONS: Retcons which serve to explain inconsistencies/errors, or play with audience expectations without directly contradicting established continuity. Spock's living parents (and human mother), the Thing's Aunt Petunia as a hot young babe, the Hulk's skin color being green in reprints of his origin, etc.

AGGRESSIVE RETCONS: Retcons which overwrite and totally contradict established history/characterization. Darth Vader as Luke's father, Gwen Stacy's children with Norman Osborn (ugh!), Magneto's "noble" motives and tragic backstory, much of ENTERPRISE, etc.

 

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John Byrne
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Posted: 17 March 2012 at 2:28pm | IP Logged | 5  

In reference to Chris' comments, above, it occurs to me that a good way of recognizing something is NOT a retcon is if it does not demand that the reader provide his or her own bits of backstory to make it work.
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Stephen Robinson
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Posted: 17 March 2012 at 2:29pm | IP Logged | 6  

AGGRESSIVE RETCONS: Retcons which overwrite and totally contradict established history/characterization. Darth Vader as Luke's father, Gwen Stacy's children with Norman Osborn (ugh!), Magneto's "noble" motives and tragic backstory, much of ENTERPRISE, etc.

*************

SER: You raise an interesting point. Does a retcon have to contradict "objective" facts to count?

The information about Luke's father comes from Ben in STAR WARS. Ben could be lying (or parsing facts). That's out of character. But is it a retcon?

Same with Gwen Stacy's affair with Norman Osborn. As out of character as my Uncle Sasha picking up a check but it does not directly contradict objective facts.

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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 17 March 2012 at 2:43pm | IP Logged | 7  

The information about Luke's father comes from Ben in STAR WARS. Ben could be lying (or parsing facts). That's out of character. But is it a retcon?

++++++++

This is a tricky one, to be sure. Of course, it's clearly a retcon. And, in terms of the film's storytelling itself, in which Ben is established as a key narrative tool (we learn about the Force, the Jedi, and Vader from him, with no reason whatsoever to believe he's an unreliable narrator), it's clearly a retcon.

In-universe, maybe it isn't so much of a retcon. Ben could have been lying (and was lying, as it turned out). But there are technically no established, objective facts that are contradicted by Father Vader's reveal. Just Ben's exposition. If we'd actually seen Vader and Father Skywalker existing as separate characters, it would be different.

+++++++++++++

Same with Gwen Stacy's affair with Norman Osborn. As out of character as my Uncle Sasha picking up a check but it does not directly contradict objective facts

+++++++++++

Yes, it does. There are timeline problems, at the very least. At no point could Gwen have run off for nine months (or less) and given birth in secret, based on everything we saw in the classic Spider-Man series. Each storyline flowed into the next, and Gwen had only gone to England to stay with relatives after her father's death for a short time. And she never showed signs of being pregnant (with TWINS) before, during, or after that trip.

And JMS' idea that the trip to France and the birth of the twins took place during the three-month gap supposedly caused by the reprint story in ASM # 116-118 doesn't fly, either. Every Spider-Man story during those years flowed directly or near-directly into the next, and the reprint story was modified to fit into then-current continuity, placing it squarely in-between ASM # 115 and # 119.

 

Uggghhh....I don't want to talk about it anymore! Hate...that...story.

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Wallace Sellars
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Posted: 17 March 2012 at 2:54pm | IP Logged | 8  

I think just not mentioning elements of an origin that tie characters to a
specific era works best for most ongoing superhero comics.

************

Which is not what my question was about.

************

How fortunate it is then that I was not responding to your question.
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Chris Basken
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Posted: 17 March 2012 at 3:21pm | IP Logged | 9  

 John Byrne wrote:
In reference to Chris' comments, above, it occurs to me that a good way of recognizing something is NOT a retcon is if it does not demand that the reader provide his or her own bits of backstory to make it work.

In general, that's my criteria for what makes a good story. If I have to do the writer's job for him, he failed.

 Stephen Robinson wrote:
The information about Luke's father comes from Ben in STAR WARS. Ben could be lying (or parsing facts). That's out of character. But is it a retcon?

In theory, you could convert any retcon into a reveal by coming up with an in-story explanation for the change. The problem is, often those explanations stretch credibility to the breaking point.


Edited by Chris Basken on 17 March 2012 at 3:29pm
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Paulo Pereira
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Posted: 17 March 2012 at 4:04pm | IP Logged | 10  

Wolverine's bone claws qualify as a retcon, I think. Flew right in the face of what was pretty firmly established (imo). 

(It's pretty inane, now that I think about it, for no one to ever have realized the claws were not cybernetic)


Edited by Paulo Pereira on 17 March 2012 at 4:05pm
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Ted Pugliese
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Posted: 17 March 2012 at 4:10pm | IP Logged | 11  

Thanks for the answer, JB, and yes, it was only an if/then question, purely
hypothetical. I do not recall Scott being identified as an only child either.
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Brad Hague
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Posted: 17 March 2012 at 4:27pm | IP Logged | 12  

As a general rule, I find retcons, or anything even remotely related that could even be mistaken as a retcon, a sign of poor writing and inability to work within the established parameters.

The only exception to this default presumption of mine is when there have been obvious hints in the past that some sort of reveal was coming and the reveal clearly fits in with the premonitions.

It's almost like most writers either wish they were working on another book so they change it to meet their stories, or they wish to make a name for themselves by screwing with continuity to put them in the momentary highlight.

As Dr. Doom would say... "bah!" 

Or rather, I hope he still says that.  Maybe that's been retconned too...

 

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