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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132396
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| Posted: 24 December 2013 at 5:19pm | IP Logged | 1
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However apt that choice quote, I detest Ayn Rand with high-Richter intensity. She is the inspiration of every political sociopath I can think of and near-murderous detachment from those who suffer real hardship. Lots of other atheists better and wiser to turn to: George Bernard Shaw, Arthur C. Clarke, Gore Vidal. •• Each of whom had things to say that I agree with, and things Idisagree with. As did Ayn Rand. Fortunately, since none of them claimed to be pronouncing the DIvine Word of God, when it comes to building a personal philosophy, one is free to pick from column A, or column B, or any combinations of columns, and not, like so many Christians, end up as complete hypocrites for embracing the Reader's Digest version of The Word.
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Rob Van Gessel
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 September 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 335
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| Posted: 24 December 2013 at 5:28pm | IP Logged | 2
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You know, I'm doing lots of research these days and I came across old videos of Gore Vidal vesus William F. Buckley. The former, an atheist, heralds causes like helping the poor while the latter, a devout Christian, all but condemned them ("Teabagger" style).
At the risk of too much generalization, this has been my own experience throughout life; self-proclaimed atheists voicing the humanist, the devout expressing scorn.
The same inverse phenomenon as see with those looney redneck teabaggers holding the House hostage crying out the name o'Jesus while oblately denying the disadvantaged, the disenfranchised, and the poor. (Our sociopathic croney Supreme Court likewise)
Among atheists I've seen around me more Gore Vidals then Ayn Rands. Ironically, among religionists, I've seen more Ayn Rands than Vidals!
It's very interesting!
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Rick Shepherd
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 June 2012
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: 24 December 2013 at 5:32pm | IP Logged | 3
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I ended up watching several different versions of 'A Christmas Carol' (including the 1984 TV movie, with Frank Finlay's Marley blowing my mind, right down to the little details), and it got me thinking about this sort of thing.
At the end, Scrooge learns to 'keep Christmas in his heart all year round' - by which, Dickens means that he becomes a charitable, altruistic person who gives to others and contributes back to the greater good, rather than a miserly recluse who cares not for his fellow man. That works for me as a secular, broader meaning of 'Christmas' - the idea that it's the one time of year where we ALL should take a bit less, and focus on giving, sharing, kindness and altruism a bit more instead. Granted, it'd be great to do it every day of the year, but if no other time, Christmas is as good as any as impetus.
Hmm... In that spirit, might be worth starting a personal (although I heartily encourage anyone else to do so as well) of celebrating Christmas in the 'Dickensian' fashion, by making a charitable donation to a good cause on Christmas Day. Again, it's a drop in the ocean (as such things sadly end up being), but still, it's better than nothing - and if lots of people did so at least once a year, it'd actually wind up as less a 'drop', more a considerable 'splash'...
...crikey - sorry, wound up being yet another long-winded free-form ramble. Again. New Year's Resolution for 2014 (that I'll doubtless fail to keep): concision...
[edit - just read up-thread, saw Jeremy Simington suggest the same. Felt that worth a nod, because it seems like the gosh-darn right thing to do. Particularly from someone with a fab Superman forum avatar - if Superman suggests it as the right thing to do, it can't be wrong! ;) ]
Edited by Rick Shepherd on 24 December 2013 at 5:37pm
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Rob Van Gessel
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 September 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 335
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| Posted: 24 December 2013 at 5:37pm | IP Logged | 4
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JB:
Respectfully, I disagree with you there a bit.
Religious zealotry does not strictly come "by the Word of God".
'-Isms' can and maybe usually do seal themselves in their own delusion at the expense of other realities other experiences.
Rand's 'Objectivist' philosophy proffers, for the most part, to fascism - by virtue of which becomes its own form of 'religious-like' thinking. In short, Rand was predominantly about 'who gives a damn about our neighbors; we SHOULDN'T'.
Ayn Rand is pure bullshit.
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Rob Van Gessel
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 September 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 335
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| Posted: 24 December 2013 at 10:08pm | IP Logged | 5
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"(We) conceive of life as duty and struggle and conquest, life which should be high and full, lived for oneself, but not above all for others — those who are at hand and those who are far distant, contemporaries, and those who will come after. "
- Mussolini , "The Doctrine of Fascism" (1932)
I agree fully with this quote but I still know that the whole framework of Mussolini's doctrine was simplistic and unspeakable bullshit.
Ayn Rand is a no less a tenet. She is likewise, in effect, a "religion".
I eschew any "religious"-like structure which tries to summarize all realities in its own terms. Objectivism, Nazism, Stalinism...they all share religious zealotry. God, gods, or idolatry - take your pick. Comes down to the same problem, and frequently dictates human action. That's where I'm coming from.
Hell, just look at the global warming debate. "Believers" discredit scientific studies and findings, their minds locked in a reality bubble. It's NO different from pushing "God" on us. NO different because it brings the same bullshit down on us and ultimately every living organism on the planet.
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Jeff Dyer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 January 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 143
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| Posted: 25 December 2013 at 12:31am | IP Logged | 6
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Jeremy, please don't assume that all who are religious are simply practicing their faith to please God or gain benefits in a hoped for afterlife. As a believer, I completely agree with you about making the world better here and now and trying to help others. I am specifically a Lutheran and one core belief we have is that we can't obtain rewards from God by our deeds, but by the grace of God. It's not a point system.
I also want to say that I don't "know" there is a God, just as you can't know there isn't. It's all a matter of faith. I hope there is...I have faith there is...but I won't know and neither will you, until we die.
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Rob Van Gessel
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 September 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 335
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| Posted: 25 December 2013 at 1:42am | IP Logged | 7
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Everything we DO know in the external world absolutely discredits the existence of any God or god-like being. Logically, we DO know that. And whatever is beyond our current reach in knowledge is sure to be beyond anything we ever imagined.
Fairy tales chained to us by our primitive ancestors who had no clue about how the natural world about them works, and still we think like infants.
In terms of these supernatural beliefs it is clear: there is NOTHING there to hear us.
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Koroush Ghazi
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1656
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| Posted: 25 December 2013 at 1:47am | IP Logged | 8
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Jeff Dyer wrote:
| Jeremy, please don't assume that all who are religious are simply practicing their faith to please God or gain benefits in a hoped for afterlife. |
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Sorry, but this makes absolutely no sense. Surely if you believe in God, you want to do the things that please God, and not displease him. Otherwise what exactly is your faith - the belief that God exists, but you ignore his explicit wishes and hope that all remains well? Have you read any Holy Book that preaches this approach? They all say that we must adhere to God's teachings as they expound, and deviance is frowned upon.
It's like saying "I believe in the legal system of this country, but I don't necessarily care about following any laws."
Jeff Dyer wrote:
| I also want to say that I don't "know" there is a God, just as you can't know there isn't. |
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But we do have sufficient evidence based on everything we observe, and what we know through science and history, to come to a logical conclusion. Namely, that what is written in the Bible (Old or New Testament) or Koran, or indeed any other holy scripture, is clearly man-made, contradictory, often downright inaccurate and dangerous to humanity.
So, while I agree that we cannot be 100% certain that a god-like being, beings or powers exist in the universe, we have no convincing evidence of their existence or influence in our daily lives, so we must assume that in practical terms, as far as we know, God does not exist.
Faith based on a complete lack of evidence is called superstition.
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Rob Van Gessel
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 September 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 335
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| Posted: 25 December 2013 at 3:27am | IP Logged | 9
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Occam's Razor!
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Steven Myers
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5630
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| Posted: 25 December 2013 at 7:39am | IP Logged | 10
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we can't obtain rewards from God by our deeds, but by the grace of God
I'm confused by this (which I've heard before). To me it implies that it doesn't matter if you are good or bad, faith in god grants you entry to heaven. Which doesn't make sense to me. I'm reading it wrong, I think.
Edited by Steven Myers on 25 December 2013 at 7:40am
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Jeremy Simington
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 April 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 687
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| Posted: 25 December 2013 at 2:30pm | IP Logged | 11
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Jeff Dyer, this is not intended to be sarcastic or confrontational so I hope it's not taken that way. I am truly interested in your point of view. It sounds like you believe you have sufficient evidence to believe in the Abrahamic God. Since your belief is evidence-based, then it must be possible that you could discover additional evidence that would cause you to view your beliefs as false and make you change your mind. What evidence would you need to make you change your mind?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132396
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| Posted: 25 December 2013 at 2:34pm | IP Logged | 12
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Faith based on a complete lack of evidence is called superstition.•• As Mark Gruenwald used to say, "I'm stitious, but I'm not SUPERstitiois."
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Topic Closed)
