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Marc Foxx
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5571
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| Posted: 24 April 2014 at 12:43pm | IP Logged | 1
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Is it too late to reconsider and allow Georgia to secede from the Union?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132429
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| Posted: 24 April 2014 at 12:52pm | IP Logged | 2
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Unlike the majority of you, I'm a gun owner and don't mind allowing others to own guns. I will say that allowing guns to be carried into bars is crazy. I also have zero problem with guns not being allowed in govt buildings. ••• Well, Jason, right away you'd be at odds with the NRA. You're talking about LIMITING the Second Amendment, and as the gun fetish lobby would quickly point out, there's nothing in A2 that allows for that. (Other than assuming the Founding Fathers were possessed of a modicum of common sense -- but that's not a conceptt with which the gun lobby is very familiar.)
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Thom Price
Byrne Robotics Member
L’Homme Diabolique
Joined: 29 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 7593
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| Posted: 24 April 2014 at 12:53pm | IP Logged | 3
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Is it too late to reconsider and allow Georgia to secede from the Union?
***
I second that. If the red states would like to secede, I think we can promise not to fight a war this time to keep them.
Edited by Thom Price on 24 April 2014 at 12:53pm
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Brian Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 30921
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| Posted: 24 April 2014 at 1:02pm | IP Logged | 4
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Apparantly we're the idiots because we don't subscribe to the notion that more guns PREVENT more gunshot fatalities.
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Josh Goldberg
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 2065
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| Posted: 24 April 2014 at 3:41pm | IP Logged | 5
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"The Hidden History of the Second Amendment"
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1465114
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David Poole
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 294
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| Posted: 25 April 2014 at 6:47am | IP Logged | 6
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There are thinking people on both sides of the Mason-Dixon line. The Mason-Dixon line isn't even a thing anymore as large percentages of the population of southern states is made up of folks who migrated from the North and Midwest (and vice versa) at some point after 1865. Framing this as North vs South is absurd, and offensive to people who are tired of being stereotyped and marginalized by other peoples' poor geographical perceptions.
The two deadliest school shooters were a person of Korean ancestry at Va Tech and a Connecticut "yankee" in Newtown. Not exactly perfect fits for the "gun-totin reb" stereotype. If we stick with school shooting fatalities (the lens through which much of this debate is focused), the states with the highest number of fatalities since Columbine in '99 are Virginia (35, all but 2 of which are part of the Va.Tech shooting), Connecticut (28, all Newtown), California (20), Colorado (19, mostly Columbine), Minnesota (12), Pennsylvania (8), Florida (8), and Illinois (7). In the same time, Georgia had zero deaths and 11 injuries from school shootings. Their outlook would probably change dramatically if one of the tragedies was local, but that has little to do with their latitudinal location.
For what it's worth, I am a lifelong North Carolinian, don't own a gun, don't have anything against a law-abiding, sane person responsibly owning a gun, and think it should be the bar owner who decides what is and isn't allowed in his bar.
I tried to re-frame my post so it can stay on board. If a mod wants to shoot me a sidebar e-mail to straighten me out, I would welcome it. I hope it stays as a counter-point to some of the previous comments on here that seem to be adding little more than ugly, 150-year-old bias.
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Don Zomberg
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 November 2005
Posts: 2355
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| Posted: 25 April 2014 at 9:01am | IP Logged | 7
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I think I'm done with the Diane Rehm show on NPR. A woman called in today distressed because the Florida governor is now allowing citizens to erect shooting galleries in their backyards--no restrictions, regulations, etc. Diane's only comment was that she didn't think gun owners appreciate being referred to as "gun nuts" by the caller.
One of her guests also mentioned a school shooting in the South where the principal "saved lives" because he had a gun and was able to stop the shooter--the guest noted it was very hard to make an argument against the notion that guns in schools is a good thing.
Bill Maher called it--over the last thirty years the Democrats have moved to the right, while Republicans have moved into an insane asylum. And so has America.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 25 April 2014 at 9:08am | IP Logged | 8
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There are thinking people on both sides of the Mason-Dixon line. The Mason-Dixon line isn't even a thing anymore as large percentages of the population of southern states is made up of folks who migrated from the North and Midwest (and vice versa) at some point after 1865. Framing this as North vs South is absurd, and offensive to people who are tired of being stereotyped and marginalized by other peoples' poor geographical perceptions.** Here's a LINK to a chart that breaks down gun violence by state. Two factors seem to be most prominent: population, and, yes, geography.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 25 April 2014 at 9:09am | IP Logged | 9
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One of her guests also mentioned a school shooting in the South where the principal "saved lives" because he had a gun and was able to stop the shooter--the guest noted it was very hard to make an argument against the notion that guns in schools is a good thing. •• What if there was no shooter to stop?
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Don Zomberg
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 November 2005
Posts: 2355
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| Posted: 25 April 2014 at 9:53am | IP Logged | 10
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Well, you see, John, there will always be shooters, because we have so many guns here in America and--
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Don Zomberg
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 November 2005
Posts: 2355
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| Posted: 25 April 2014 at 9:56am | IP Logged | 11
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North vs South
That's the part of this debate that upsets you?
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David Poole
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 294
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| Posted: 25 April 2014 at 10:19am | IP Logged | 12
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"Here's a LINK to a chart that breaks down gun violence by state."
**
The map view of that really paints a picture, doesn't it? It'd be interesting to see one of gun ownership per capita along with it. My thought being 'is there a direct correlation between how many guns are in the state vs how many gun deaths there are'? I would guess that some states would be surprisingly low. For example, Texas isn't anywhere near as bad as I expected it would be. It comes in 24th out of 50 for per capita deaths, but I guarantee it's in the top 5 for gun ownership per capita.
Also, some of the best performing states for per capita deaths are also topping the list for school shooting deaths. Excluding Conn. as a single-shooter outlier, you still have Minnesota, California, and Illinois leading the pack in school deaths but coming in low per capita. Does that point to a gun education issue?
Another interesting bit I came across is that, per JB's link gun deaths in the US average 10.1 per 100,000. Car deaths are moving down to the point they are almost identical: Link
So, what do those numbers mean? If you're sitting at a Cowboys home game, surrounded by 79,999 other people, it means that on average, in the next year, eight of you will die from guns and eight of you will die from car accidents. I won't argue that that's a small number, because even one out of 100,000 is a tragedy to that person's loved ones. What I will argue is that we should address gun safety the same way we've addressed car safety. No one is pushing to eliminate cars and no one has formed a superPAC to keep cars from becoming safer. Look at policy, look at education, look at regulation without elimination, and it's a lot easier to reach consensus and see real gains.
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