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Jeffrey Rice
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 September 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 1161
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| Posted: 28 July 2014 at 10:14pm | IP Logged | 1
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The Killing Joke had gorgeous art. However, the concept of the possible Red Hood origin was not original, maiming Barbara Gordon served no purpose but cheap shock, and the ending was completely out of character. Those add up to bad story telling.
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Brian Hague
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 November 2006
Posts: 8515
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| Posted: 29 July 2014 at 4:52am | IP Logged | 2
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Jason, Grant Morrison's truly stupid re-interpretation of the ending of Killing Joke gets ripped apart and debunked in this thread from 2013:
Yes, it's so much "kewwwler" if Batman disregards his promise to Jim Gordon and proves that "their way" in fact doesn't work, but that's not what's happening in those panels.
At the time that I read "Killing Joke" however, I was puzzled as to why DC felt constrained to follow up on the events shown there. There are at least two visual clues pointing to the story being out of regular, post-Crisis continuity; 1.) The dusty family photo Batman picks up (actually a reprinted pin-up from the back of a Batman Annual) that shows Batwoman, Bat-Girl, Bat-Mite, and Ace, the Bat-Hound, none of whom at that point had been re-introduced into regular continuity and 2.) The beautiful, long 1950's era Batmobile that Batman pulls up to the circus in. Again, not a model shown to have existed post-Crisis.
I felt pretty secure in calling "Killing Joke" a stand-alone piece, set in a pre-Crisis world, until DC introduced Oracle. I was genuinely surprised later to find that all concerned felt that the story took place in Batman's current continuity and had always intended for it to.
Regardless, there is no reading of the story that allows for Morrison's idiot take on the ending.
The degree to which current and recent Marvel storylines mirror those already done as "What If's" is discussed in this thread from 2011:
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132391
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| Posted: 29 July 2014 at 5:26am | IP Logged | 3
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TKJ and DKR were both very clearly set in the pre-CRISIS DCU, yet both were embraced as in-continuity characterizations of Batman -- particularly ludicrous in the case of DKR.
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Petter Myhr Ness
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 July 2009
Location: Norway
Posts: 3836
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| Posted: 29 July 2014 at 8:40am | IP Logged | 4
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To me, TKJ was a typical imaginary story - an origin of the Joker that never was supposed to be canon. At least that's what I thought at the time. That's why DC's decision to keep Barbara Gordon crippled while discarding the rest struck me as bizarre, to say the least.
I'm also amazed at the accolades this story has, considering that neither Moore nor Bolland seem very happy with it themselves.
And not in a million years would I interpret that final scene the way Morrison does.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 29 July 2014 at 9:17am | IP Logged | 5
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That's why DC's decision to keep Barbara Gordon crippled while discarding the rest struck me as bizarre, to say the least.•• DC has a long history of disrespect for the female characters. Lois Lane existed mostly to annoy Superman and get captured a lot.* The female superheroes were created a wimpy versions of their male avatars. As comics became "darker," Batgirl became a "problem." And the solution to the problem was not to, say, have Barbara take a job with the Peace Corps or something equally positive, thus leaving Gotham. Oh, no! The "solution" was to have her brutally attacked and crippled. ________________ * Maybe DC knows its audience. Fanboys seem to love this stuff. When I was doing SUPERMAN, there were many letters complaining that I had made Lois "too tough" -- until she was captured and tied up by the Prankster. Then, overnight, everybody loved her.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132391
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| Posted: 29 July 2014 at 9:18am | IP Logged | 6
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I'm also amazed at the accolades this story has, considering that neither Moore nor Bolland seem very happy with it themselves. •• It has great art, and it has long been true in comics that great art can sell crap stories better than great writing can sell crap art. (This was, at least, until the Liefelds of the world arrived, and stories were no longer important.)
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 29 July 2014 at 9:34am | IP Logged | 7
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There was potential for a good Two-Face story at the core
of THE KILLING JOKE: I could see Batman, knowing the good
man Harvey Dent once was, reaching out to him and trying
to save him. And I could see Two-Face wanting to prove
that *anyone* could go insane after one "bad day."
Neither of those things worked with the Batman/Joker
relationship, and felt forced.
Barbara Gordon -- Batgirl -- being permanently wounded
like a rank amateur should have never made it past the
editor. If you don't like Batgirl, don't use her anymore
(especially since she'd already retired by this point).
But the brutal attack on her -- not to mention the over-
sexualization of her wounds (undressing a paralyzed woman
and photographing her naked felt like close to rape).
There was a viciousness in that plot element that you
once never saw in all-ages comics. You might provide a
"good scare" for kids in a "Karloff as Frankenstein" way
but nothing so base. I am a big fan of Denny O'Neil's
work as a writer on BATMAN, but I was disappointed with
some of his choices as an editor.
There is a sadly direct line from TKJ to the recent DEATH
OF THE FAMILY, which is more navel gazing into the
relationship between Batman and The Joker, like some
comic book romantic comedy. If I were editor of Batman
titles, I would not approve any story idea that continues
along this line. I want The Joker to have twisted clown
plots that The Batman foils through his superior
intelligence -- I don't want The Joker treated like some
CRIMINAL MINDS un-sub while The Batman waxes philosophic
about how similar they are (they aren't).
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Carmen Bernardo
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Joined: 08 August 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 3666
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| Posted: 29 July 2014 at 3:27pm | IP Logged | 8
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John Byrne wrote:
| Maybe DC knows its audience. Fanboys seem to love this stuff. When I was doing SUPERMAN, there were many letters complaining that I had made Lois "too tough" -- until she was captured and tied up by the Prankster. Then, overnight, everybody loved her. |
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Sounds to me like some people really have their priorities in disorder. I'm glad that I don't hang around with a crowd like that.
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Josh Goldberg
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 2065
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| Posted: 30 July 2014 at 3:30pm | IP Logged | 9
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"Barbara Gordon -- Batgirl -- being permanently wounded
like a rank amateur should have never made it past the
editor."****
That element rang false for me from the very first reading,way back in the day. Batgirl should not have been so easy to take down.
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Brian O'Neill
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Joined: 13 November 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 1964
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| Posted: 30 July 2014 at 10:10pm | IP Logged | 10
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The only way Joker catching Barbara by surprise works if if the story's out of continuity, and she never became Batgirl. A 'civilian' Barbara could be caught off-guard with that 'deer in the headlights' look (this was just after Barbara mentioned that her Dad's description of Joker's smile 'gave her nightmares' years earlier...meaning, she was a kid when Joker (and Batman) were early in their careers). A 'trained pro' Barbara would have done...anything but stand there, frozen with fear.
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David Ferguson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2007
Location: Ireland
Posts: 6782
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| Posted: 31 July 2014 at 5:56am | IP Logged | 11
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I just didn't get the joke. It was a pretty weak story.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132391
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| Posted: 31 July 2014 at 6:38am | IP Logged | 12
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The only way Joker catching Barbara by surprise works if if the story's out of continuity, and she never became Batgirl. A 'civilian' Barbara could be caught off-guard with that 'deer in the headlights' look (this was just after Barbara mentioned that her Dad's description of Joker's smile 'gave her nightmares' years earlier...meaning, she was a kid when Joker (and Batman) were early in their careers). A 'trained pro' Barbara would have done...anything but stand there, frozen with fear.•• A fairly typical example of something that happens not because it is LOGICAL for it to happen, but because the story REQUIRES it to happen. (There is an Urban Legend that Moore asked what to do with Batgirl in THE KILLING JOKE, and the editor said "Cripple the bitch!" True? I have no way of knowing. But I do know it fits all too well with some of the attitudes I perceived when I started working at DC.)
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