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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 31 July 2014 at 9:36am | IP Logged | 1
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The only way Joker catching Barbara by surprise works if
if the story's out of continuity, and she never became
Batgirl. A 'civilian' Barbara could be caught off-guard
with that 'deer in the headlights' look (this was just
after Barbara mentioned that her Dad's description of
Joker's smile 'gave her nightmares' years
earlier...meaning, she was a kid when Joker (and Batman)
were early in their careers). A 'trained pro' Barbara
would have done...anything but stand there, frozen with
fear.
••
A fairly typical example of something that happens not
because it is LOGICAL for it to happen, but because the
story REQUIRES it to happen.
(There is an Urban Legend that Moore asked what to do
with Batgirl in THE KILLING JOKE, and the editor said
"Cripple the bitch!" True? I have no way of knowing. But
I do know it fits all to well with some of the attitudes
I perceived when I started working at DC.)
****
SER: I would be more forgiving of THE KILLING JOKE if it
had not become wedged in Batman "continuity" --- even
after the "new 52". Barbara Gordon had to be the
"sacrificial lamb" to make the story have "weight." This
is a common problem with a lot of comic book stories in
the past 25 years. Creators are not content to allow a
story to just be a story, the rise and fall on its own
merits. It has to "mean" something. I know people list as
their favorite Spider-Man story the JMS issue in which
Aunt May discovers Peter Parker's dual identity. The
story, of course, removes most of the tension from the
relationship -- the fear that Aunt May would die from
shock of such a discovery, as well as the fear that she
would never forgive Peter for his part in her husband's
death. These were *real* fears that every kid has felt
about a secret they have had -- but, hey, let's just toss
that aside and have Aunt May hang out at Avengers
mansion.
Was the story itself *really* good or was it "memorable"
because it was perceived as "counting," as moving the
ball forward? Whenever lists of great comic book stories
are produced, I've noticed that the stories from before
the late '80s are ones that don't "count" (i.e. alter the
status quo) but the ones after the late '80s mostly do --
the "game changer" stories. I find myself preferring the
former. It's certainly harder and -- to me -- more
impressive to make a story "count" by not altering the
status quo (the Wolverine "alone" issue, for example)
than it is by doing so.
The JMS AMAZING SPIDER-MAN issue plays out like a WHAT IF
? but without the cosmic irony that I enjoyed so much
about the best issues of the classic series. I read one
recently that showed Spider-Man saving Gwen Stacey, but
that set in motion events that exposed Peter's identity
to the world.
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Jason Czeskleba
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004
Posts: 4548
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| Posted: 31 July 2014 at 11:32am | IP Logged | 2
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John Byrne wrote:
| (There is an Urban Legend that Moore asked what to do with Batgirl in THE KILLING JOKE, and the editor said "Cripple the bitch!" True? I have no way of knowing. But I do know it fits all too well with some of the attitudes I perceived when I started working at DC.) |
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It's a true story. Len Wein admits he said it, though he regrets making the comment and denies the decision was made as flippantly as that comment would imply. He still believes the overall decision to cripple her was a sound one:
"I have always regretted making that comment. I was a good deal younger at the time, and it was meant ironically. And, no, the decision was not made lightly. When Alan suggested it, I told him I'd have to discuss it with then-publisher Jenette Kahn and get back to him. We had a lengthy discussion, decided it was something that had never been done before to a major character, and agreed to let Alan go ahead. I called him back, made the now-regrettable comment, and we want ahead. I still think crippling Barbara was a good idea. I thought she was a much more interesting character as Oracle than she ever was as Batgirl."
Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 31 July 2014 at 11:34am
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 31 July 2014 at 12:24pm | IP Logged | 3
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Unless Wein was a precocious 12 year old at the time,
"cripple the bitch" is an inexcusable sentiment for an
adult to make. (I'd also ground my son if he ever said
that in my presence, even at 12)
The misogyny, in my mind, is the disrespect -- the almost
glee -- of maiming a character. It should be a painful
consideration. Also, Jean Grey and later Supergirl both
got to die saving the world. Even if I, as a DC editor,
approved the disabling of Barbara Gordon, I would never
allow it to be done in such a disrespectful way (shot
like a rank amateur and photographed nude).
I will also go to my grave denouncing the notion that
Oracle was a better character than Batgirl. For one
thing, the use of Oracle became a crutch for Batman --
and a needless one. There was also nothing that Barbara
did as Oracle that she couldn't have done as Batgirl. A
woman doesn't have to be paralyzed to use her brain. If
Oracle has to be in a wheelchair, then create a new
character.
Coincidentally, Bruce Wayne's later paralysis was cured
by a woman sacrificing her intellect in order to "cure"
him.
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Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6106
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| Posted: 31 July 2014 at 1:06pm | IP Logged | 4
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Dennis Weaver's character on Gunsmoke had a limp-- it was one of his most identifiable character traits. James Garner and the Maverick team made a joke about it on their show when, in one episode, Maverick sees a character begin to limp and then says something along the lines of,
"Hey, you're limping. It looks good on you."
"Really? Why?"
"I don't know, it gives you more character."
That's about the depth of thinking that seems to have gone into Oracle.
Wein's comments just add to the whole face-palm nature of this comic book nightmare.
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Sergio Saavedra
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 August 2007
Location: Spain
Posts: 452
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| Posted: 31 July 2014 at 3:36pm | IP Logged | 5
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About the "aren't they all?" comment, I'd like to post what I understood when I first read the story as a teenager.For me, it was a kind of open ending. I mean, I had read the whole story assuming it was an imaginary story, not a "real" story in continuity. But that final comment and Clark's wink was a kind of hint that the story might have been "real". Something like those stories that end with the main character waking up and realising it had all been a dream, until he finds something that suggests that it might not have been a dream. I don't know if that interpretation sounds forced, but it was totally spontaneous on my part.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132320
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| Posted: 31 July 2014 at 7:20pm | IP Logged | 6
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Characters winking at -- ie, being aware of -- the audience is a trope as old as theater. But it signals that what we are watching is a performance, not reality.
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Kip Lewis
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 March 2011
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| Posted: 31 July 2014 at 8:17pm | IP Logged | 7
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I will also go to my grave denouncing the notion that
Oracle was a better character than Batgirl. For one
thing, the use of Oracle became a crutch for Batman --
and a needless one. There was also nothing that Barbara
did as Oracle that she couldn't have done as Batgirl. A
woman doesn't have to be paralyzed to use her brain. If
Oracle has to be in a wheelchair, then create a new
character.
Yet, now that they brought Batgirl back, everything
Oracle brought to the world of heroes is gone. Really,
she had become one of many duplicate Bat-people.
As far as "make a new character"; the character was only do
successful because she was an established character
changed. If Oracle was a new character, she would have
never gone beyond the Bat titles. Oracle touched the
entire DC universe because she was Batgirl.
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 31 July 2014 at 8:49pm | IP Logged | 8
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KIP: If Oracle was a new character, she would have
never gone beyond the Bat titles. Oracle touched the
entire DC universe because she was Batgirl.
***
SER: My view is that if you can't create a new character
on his or her own merits without maiming or killing or
turning evil an established character you didn't create
yourself, then you should try again.
When THE KILLING JOKE was released, I think Barbara
Gordon had retired. Batgirl wasn't a problem that needed
fixing. If you didn't want to use her, then don't. If you
did, she was available to you --- until THE KILLING JOKE.
Although, in a way, the fixation on Oracle was worse than
what Moore did. You could always cure her paralysis --
just like Bruce Wayne's broken back was healed. Yet
Oracle was viewed as "better" than Batgirl. I guess I
didn't get a vote. I was a huge Batgirl fan. Yvonne Craig
hooked me (as I imagine she did a lot of kids). And I
really liked the Barbara Gordon character in the comics.
She -- like the Silver Age Supegirl -- had a compelling
"girl next door" quality I enjoyed.
When Jason Todd died, I hoped against hope that Barbara
Gordon would somehow walk again and join Batman as his
partner (she was a young adult rather than a preteen,
which should have resolved the many complaints I'd heard
about Robin). Although this never happened in the comics,
it pleased me when Bruce Timm ran with that idea, after a
fashion, in THE NEW BATMAN ADVENTURES.
And when Jason Todd returned *from death*, I thought that
it was definitely time for Barbara Gordon to regain her
mobility. I'm glad she did. In the new 52 lineup, Batgirl
is hardly the redundant character -- it's the four or
five Robins.
Oh, if you forgive my indulgence, I leave you with one of
my favorite comics as a kid. I recall looking forward to
it ever since seeing the house ad.
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Brian Hague
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 November 2006
Posts: 8515
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| Posted: 31 July 2014 at 9:29pm | IP Logged | 9
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As I understand it, Stephen, the only reason that special exists was because the higher-ups had already okay'ed "Killing Joke" and wanted to retire the character before she was paralyzed.
Still, I sympathize. It is difficult having favorite characters in today's hack n' slash comics environment. Back in the day, it was enough simply to have the character in the story. Later, the story had to be about the character. All too quickly, the only interesting thing that could happen to a character was something violent, and well, since the readers demanded that the hero or heroine be at the center of every story, something violent MUST then happen to them...
There seems to be so much LESS that can be done with storytelling these days than there was before.
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Brian Hague
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 November 2006
Posts: 8515
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| Posted: 31 July 2014 at 9:43pm | IP Logged | 10
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As for Kip's observations, I don't know that the only reason Oracle succeeded was that she was originally Batgirl. It was an interesting evolution for the character, but there's nothing to say that a new character introduced with Oracle's skill sets and abilities wouldn't have done as well.
I don't think such a "new" character would have been so closely tied to the Bat-titles. More likely, she'd have remained in DC's vague free-for-all world of espionage organizations, likely tied to Amanda Waller's character.
Aside from Batman, Commissioner Gordon, Robin, Supergirl, and to a much lesser degree, Superman, Barbara Gordon didn't have many ties to the super-hero community. All of this "Birds of Prey" stuff started later. I don't know that Batgirl ever met Black Canary, Power Girl, Lady Blackhawk, or any of the others prior to her winding up paralyzed.
If Oracle were introduced in the pages of Suicide Squad as June Robbins of the Challengers, Jenet Klyburn of STAR Labs, or even a complete unknown, what she was able to do was valid and interesting enough that she could easily have maintained her visibility and presence in the DCU even to today, absent all of the "cripple her/cure her" sturm und drang attached to Barbara Gordon.
Now that the Clocktower is empty and Batgirl is back again, apparently, weirdly, a teenager all over again, maybe it's time for Chloe Sullivan to finally debut in the mainstream titles... :-)
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 01 August 2014 at 4:31am | IP Logged | 11
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If Oracle was a new character, she would have never gone beyond the Bat titles. Oracle touched the entire DC universe because she was Batgirl.•• There is absolutely no way you can say that with any certainty. Wolverine was created as a minor Hulk villain, and went on to dominate the Marvel Universe.
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Kip Lewis
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 01 August 2014 at 4:37am | IP Logged | 12
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Oracle associated with Amanda Waller, would never have
worked the same way. Walker, well anything from covert
agencies isn't about trust. Oracle worked because
everyone trusted Oracle. She knew their secrets and
they trusted her. Fans, who knew her full story
(something not all the heroes did) trusted her to keep
those secrets and do everything with a positive approach.
A brand new character would have probably turned dark, or
would have been suspicious from the beginning. What made
Oracle work was the Barbara persona.
Something I think some people miss when they say, "make
a new character" is that some stories, some evolution,
some changes only work if the start from a familiar
place. Take away the real foundation then it becomes a
watered down version. Oracle without Batgirl might be
interesting but she would never be interesting in the
same way. That way sometimes is the point. Take it
away then you might as well drop it. Some things require
not only that you know the character but that you have
history with the character.
Plus it serves a community that had been untouched. Not
all traumatic changes occur at the beginning of one's
life. Sometimes they happen after the story has been
told. Some people start life walking then suddenly they
can't. This gave them a character they could identify
with.
The problem of her staying in a wheelchair when others
don't; well this isn't the first thing in comics that
would fall apart if you look too closely.
Edited by Kip Lewis on 01 August 2014 at 5:38am
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Topic Closed)
