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Steve De Young
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 April 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 3491
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| Posted: 29 September 2014 at 2:34pm | IP Logged | 1
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but what if these more highly evolved versions don't want to get into arguments with people who will just say 'if it was good enough for my ancestors...' and cut their heads of for being witches? Are you going to make them? How were you planning to do that?
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When ISIS recently beheaded those journalists, the imam at our local Islamic center joined in an official statement, signed by Muslim clerics all over the U.S. and Canada, condemning the beheadings, and all violence done in the name of Islam. He then organized an ecumenical candlelight vigil in the memory of the victims in our town. That is a concrete example of what I'm saying we need to encourage. Its the beginnings of a movement that needs to be successful in transforming Islam as a whole.
Also there are higher authorities who wouldn't condone many of the infringements upon personal liberty that you have mentioned who have jurisdiction over a lot of the places that these things occur in. but if word doesn't get out to these authorities due to tribal loyalty or standover methods how are is authority supposed to do its job?
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First, we shouldn't be silent about the places whose governments do condone these human rights violations.
Second, we have to get rid of any kind of 'multiculturalism' that excuses these kinds of evils, or would accuse anyone who criticizes them of being...I dunno...a white supremacist or something. Religions and cultures are systems of ideas. Slavery is a horrible, condemnable idea, both in the U.S. 200 years ago and in the Middle East and Africa today. Its evil wherever its found, regardless of how a given 'culture' feels about it. Likewise the oppression of women. Likewise the violent persecution of minorities.
The point Bill Maher was trying to make in that piece I linked was: We have zero tolerance for intolerance here in Western nations, we should have zero tolerance for it in other nations and in ethnic communities within our nations as well. And in trying to root it out, we should start our war with the most egregious examples first.
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James Long
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 September 2014
Location: Australia
Posts: 60
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| Posted: 29 September 2014 at 2:44pm | IP Logged | 2
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So what your saying is that everyone in a position to do anything about these things that Maher finds so awful should carry on doing what they are already doing and thank Maher for thinking of it first. Is that right?
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Ted Pugliese
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 December 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 7979
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| Posted: 29 September 2014 at 3:10pm | IP Logged | 3
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We did. His name was Saddam Hussein, and the
government spent years justifying why they went in and
took out the Hitler of his time. Maybe there were
WMDs, maybe there weren't. I don't care. He needed
to go. Period.
It is often said that if we do not learn from the
mistakes of our past, then we are doomed to repeat
them. Isn't this why we study history? History
taught us that Hitler was evil, genocide is wrong, and
the holocaust should never happen again. So when
genocide is found to exist today, in the so-called
modern world, at the hands of those who would be king,
then "sic semper tyrannis."
These monsters need to be destryoed. I don't care
what they believe or where they live, on either side
of the globe. When you murder and terrorize those who
would be your neighbors for simply being Shiite, Jew,
or Christian, or for standing up for them, then you
are a tyrant and a terrorist. You are not a freedom
fighter. That tag is reserved for those who stand
against you. You are evil, and you must be destroyed.
My words are not full of hate, they are full of anger,
directed at those who hate, who murder and kill, who
cut peoples heads off, who slice baptised babies in
half, who terrorize their own women and children,
wherever they are and whereever they are from. Today
it's ISIS. Tomorrow it will be someone else, for evil
exists, regardless of your super natural beliefs, evil
exists, and good men and women must be ready to combat
it and destroy it when their time comes. I had my
turn. I got lucky. Now I hope there will be a next
generation of men and women willing to fight for
soemthing. I hope. Because somedays it seems that
our future is left in the hands of a bunch of cry
babies, who take to facebook and the internet to bitch
and complain about every little thing that doesn't go
their every little way. Trust me. It could be worse.
Take a moment. Give thanks for what you have, to God
or fate, or at least appreciate what you have and stop
whining about every little thing that you're not going
to do anything about anyway.
Forget the Bad Byrne Stories! Now there are too many
bad stories, because people not involved in things
have a whole lot to say about things they are not
involved in. You're offended? By something that has
nothing to do with you? You must be online. Red
sweater anybody?
Great! Now I'm complaining. Must be time to log off.
Be good to each other!
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Ted Pugliese
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 December 2005
Location: United States
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| Posted: 29 September 2014 at 3:16pm | IP Logged | 4
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P. S. I hope no one thinks I am talking about Muslims
in general. I am talking about ISIS and their friends.
Shame I even have to write that, but after getting
bumped to the next page, I am sure someone will miss the
point, once again.
Edited by Ted Pugliese on 29 September 2014 at 3:18pm
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Koroush Ghazi
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1656
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| Posted: 29 September 2014 at 6:14pm | IP Logged | 5
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Ted Pugliese wrote:
We did. His name was Saddam Hussein, and the government spent years justifying why they went in and took out the Hitler of his time. Maybe there were
WMDs, maybe there weren't. I don't care. He needed
to go. Period. |
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All of the false justifications did lead to Saddam Hussein - a secular dictator who actually opposed radical Islam - being deposed, and instead left Iraq a crippled shell of a country, setting the stage for fundamentalists, many of them previously armed and/or funded by the US, such as the Taliban, and some members of ISIS, to engage in a struggle to fill the power vacuum.
Ted Pugliese wrote:
| It is often said that if we do not learn from the mistakes of our past, then we are doomed to repeat them. Isn't this why we study history? |
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Apparently some of us don't study it beyond cliches and slogans. The history of the Middle East is rife with ham-fisted, short-sighted geopolitical interference by the major powers.
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James Long
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 September 2014
Location: Australia
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| Posted: 29 September 2014 at 6:54pm | IP Logged | 6
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Apparently some of us don't study it beyond cliches and slogans. The history of the Middle East is rife with ham-fisted, short-sighted geopolitical interference by the major powers.
_______________
Yes.
Publicizing every failing the west has made in misjudging the Middle eastern peoples capacity for going bats-hit mental despite having enough food to eat and a home to live in, always helps to quell extremism.
That approach never fails.
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Michael Roberts
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| Posted: 29 September 2014 at 8:12pm | IP Logged | 7
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Publicizing every failing the west has made in misjudging the Middle eastern peoples capacity for going bats-hit mental despite having enough food to eat and a home to live in, always helps to quell extremism.
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Publicizing every bad policy decision the West has made that have directly allowed extremist groups to prosper should help us not make those decisions again. But it doesn't. We keep repeating the same mistakes in the Middle East.
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Koroush Ghazi
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2009
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| Posted: 29 September 2014 at 8:28pm | IP Logged | 8
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James Long wrote:
Yes.
Publicizing every failing the west has made in misjudging the Middle eastern peoples capacity for going bats-hit mental despite having enough food to eat and a home to live in, always helps to quell extremism.
That approach never fails. |
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Ah yes, I'm picking on the west for little failings like the US overthrowing a democratically elected Prime Minister in Iran in 1953 to bring back and reinstall the Shah, simply to prevent nationalization of oil. That worked out well for Iran don't you think?
Or arming and aiding Saddam Hussein while he fought against the Iranians, (despite Saddam being "another Hitler" according to Ted), until Saddam became a thorn in the US' side by invading Kuwait, at which point suddenly he was an unbearable dictator that must be desposed - nevermind the numerous deaths and ongoing regional turmoil the ensuing war created.
For the sake of brevity I won't even begin discussing how Britain's meddling in Palestine is the root cause of the decades-long Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Or how the US is still allies with Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, both countries in which there is much Government-sanctioned injustice. They're good guys as long as they toe the US line.
All of these actions have been taken with a view to shoring up Western interests, not regional stability, equity or even democracy.
And then certain people have the nerve to call a small region packed with people of all ethnic backgrounds and religious beliefs, which has been artificially divided and sub-divided, invaded and reinvaded, for foreign interests, "batshit mental".
As Ted so rightly said, those who do not learn from the mistakes of history are doomed to repeat them. And we sit and wonder how a group like ISIS came into being...
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James Long
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 September 2014
Location: Australia
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| Posted: 29 September 2014 at 8:37pm | IP Logged | 9
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Terrorism gets funding through mosques because the causes of middle-eastern problems remain unaddressed in a dialogue with middle eastern people. Did you know for instance that middle eastern countries spend the same proportion of their gdps on arming up that western counties spend on health care (4 x the military budget of wCs in other words)? Nobody seems to consider factors like these because either they don't get told or they don't want to hear about anything besides things that make an enemy or scapegoat out of somebody.
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Koroush Ghazi
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2009
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| Posted: 29 September 2014 at 9:52pm | IP Logged | 10
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I'm bewildered that you consider it unusual that countries in one of the most volatile regions in the world have higher military expenditure.
But in any case, your "did you know" statement, with its sensationalist undertones, can be tempered by looking at some actual statistics. This World Bank chart shows military expenditures as % of GDP for 2009-2013. Some interesting highlights:
Afghanistan: 2.0% - 6.2%
Iran: 2.1% - 2.2%
Iraq: 2.7% - 3.5%
Israel: 5.6% - 6.9%
Saudi Arabia: 7.7% - 9.0%
United States: 3.8% - 4.7%
United Kingdom: 2.3% - 2.6%
What can we conclude these stats? Not much in isolation.
At peak military expenditure over the last few years, the US and Israel spent far more as % of GDP on arms than Iran or Iraq. The Saudis had them all beat, and they're not even engaged in any war. But is Israel really twice as hostile as Iran, because it spends twice the proportion of GDP on arms?
The critical issue here, is that conditions are fertile for radical Islam to spread in the region. Religion thrives on ignorance and poverty, particularly radicalized religion.
But let's not simplify the causes and blame it all on Islam. There are many reasons why the region is a mess. Artificially created country divisions by pragmatic and self-interested parties like Britain and France have inflamed a sense of injustice. Wealth and influence being focused in the hands of despots, installed by or propped up and fully supported by the West (the Shah, Saddam, and now Syria's Assad and the Saudi Royal family), keeps most ordinary middle easterners poor and ignorant. What schooling they can get is often heavily tainted by religious indoctrination. Backing leaders in the region whenever they suit your purpose, then overthrowing them as soon as they don't, creates power vacuums and regional instability.
And of course, historically the region has always been relatively volatile because it is the middle east - the crossroads between east and west, the route through which many armies and trading parties from the east and west have used, and let's not forget, the geographic focus and birthplace of three of the world's major religions. More recently, the discovery of oil, the fuel that runs the world's economic engines has only made matters worse.
So let's not be simplistic and make it sound as though the people in the region are somehow genetically violent and unstable. There is a strong element of Frankenstein's monster in this mix.
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James Long
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Joined: 23 September 2014
Location: Australia
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| Posted: 29 September 2014 at 10:11pm | IP Logged | 11
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I'm bewildered that you consider it unusual that countries in one of the most volatile regions in the world have higher military expenditure.
____________
which came first the chicken or the um... rhymes with (blown off) leg.
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Koroush Ghazi
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| Posted: 29 September 2014 at 10:16pm | IP Logged | 12
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Brilliant response James, I can see I'm up against quite the scholar of history.
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