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Robert Shepherd
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Posted: 17 November 2014 at 11:35am | IP Logged | 1  

Stephen,

The answer is yes to all the above.

Yes we have seen the Captain America role change many times, and each time, as fans, we might even believe the change is meant to stay. Fans get all bent out of shape, and things go back to normal in a few issues. Why? Because it's only a story.

Yes we justified in criticizing, or I'd rather say, have an opinion, of the current stories, but its a bigger yes that most on this board have seen the same stories time after time. That is just the way it has to be when you have so many titles told for so many years. There are only so many stories to tell after all.

Yes the casting is politically motivated to push Falcon, a black hero, to the forefront. Odds are Marvel is trying to get a movie or show started with him in the lead. 

So in the end, there are a couple factors that everyone has to internalize. 

We HAVE outgrown comics. We want to recapture our youth but can't, and blame the comic publishers for out inability.
Change is painful but inevitable, but we can't get over ourselves.
Yes, internet opinions have illustrated how extreme people can be when there is no filter. 90% of the moaners have forgotten or ignore common rules of etiquette. Most trolls are simply cowards.
The newer generations actually believe they are entitled to make demands of comic publishers, as if they were true business investors, whereas the roles of paying customer and corporate investor are completely different.

On a side note, I did check out the female Thor because of all the changes in recent times, thats the one that irked me. Once I saw that it was not some stupid gender bend trick, I was fine. (I assume it wasn't a gender bend trick, but I didn't read the book where she actually picked up the hammer)

And for Brevoort's role and reputation, anyone who has ever worked in a corporation at a management level knows you have to tow the corporate line, with no deviation. Some people get stuck in roles of damage control and must suffer the flak, some get stuck in roles where towing the line conflicts with personal belief, but who can risk leaving their job every time our job gets uncomfortable?



Edited by Robert Shepherd on 17 November 2014 at 11:38am
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Erin Anna Leach
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Posted: 17 November 2014 at 11:41am | IP Logged | 2  

I think that the difference between the role switches working back in the 70's and 80's, and not working so much now is two fold. Reason one is all the non-comic media hype that is going on about it. Yes, I do believe that comics need to advertise their books better to the masses, just not this way. The second is that the role changes had good reasons for happening back in the 70's and 80's. The reasons fit the characters and the story they were telling. Now days they just do this in the hope of selling more comics.

Edited by Aaron Adam Leach on 17 November 2014 at 11:42am
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Lars Sandmark
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Posted: 17 November 2014 at 1:04pm | IP Logged | 3  

Robert Shepherd wrote:
"We HAVE outgrown comics. We want to recapture our youth but can't, and blame the comic publishers for our inability."

First, that's a pretty broad brush you're painting with. Speak for yourself.

Second, I love comicbook SuperHeroes, but current comic publishers simply don't know how to write them. I'll quote the article:
"(Superior Iron Man) is the most Marvel-y Marvel comic I've seen in a while."
That's long time editor and senior vice-president of publishing Tom Brevoort saying that HE HASN'T seen a Marvel-y Marvel comic for a while!
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Lars Sandmark
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Posted: 17 November 2014 at 1:11pm | IP Logged | 4  

In that article Brevoort also says:
"And certainly we've seen Steve Rogers battle Batroc before many times. So much so that doing another issue that had a fight between Steve and Batroc is maybe by itself not all that interesting."

(Sounds like it's time that Brevoort 'moved on'.)
He should introduce new villains for Cap to fight or hire someone who can make 'another issue' with Cap fighting Batroc more interesting.


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Lars Sandmark
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Posted: 17 November 2014 at 1:26pm | IP Logged | 5  

Sam Wilson taking over 'The Mantle' of Captain America rather than continuing his career as The Falcon diminishes his identity as a crime fighter imo.
If we buy into these characters as real people, then I feel bad for Sam, because its like his identity isn't important enough to preserve when his pal Steve can't continue in his role as Cap.

(imagine Steve Rogers was handing over his child instead of his role as Captain America: "Here Sam, take over my duties as parent, but also drop your current life and change your name to Steve Rogers.")

My point is this story premise only makes sense from a comic-publishing point of view, not really a character-growth pov.

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Philip Obaza
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Posted: 17 November 2014 at 1:44pm | IP Logged | 6  

I would also answer yes to all of Stephen's questions.

I grew up reading comics in the 90s, an era viewed by many as one of
comics' weakest at best, and the beginning of the end at worst. Despite
this, my brother and I both became comic book collectors and enjoyed a
lot of what we read, even though hindsight and age has wisened us up a
bit. Perfect example being THE CLONE SAGA - a story that fascinated
us both when we were young, but we now understand was catastrophic
for the Spider-Man mythos.

What happened? My brother and I grew up. Suddenly, our tastes
changed, which was perfectly fine, except the problem was the comics
changed with us
. As it has been pointed out by JB, Greg Kirkman, and
many others on this board, comics were now catering further and further
to a small demographic of fans rather than the masses. The stories also
got darker, more absurd, and less interesting to read.

Add in the fact that my brother and I suddenly became obsessed with
reading older comics and achieving a better sense of history and before
long, it was painfully obvious that while we might have outgrown comics,
the quality of the newer issues being produced was undeniably
declining.

Indeed, it's hard to not excuse a lot of what's printed today as unreadable
dreck. Yesterday, in my LCS, I glanced at an issue of the new AXIS:
HOBGOBLIN mini-series. In one panel, the Hobgoblin takes a selfie with
civilians.

I'll repeat that: the Hobgoblin (Roderick Kingsley) takes a selfie in the
story! *shakes head*


Edited by Philip Obaza on 17 November 2014 at 1:48pm
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Conrad Teves
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Posted: 17 November 2014 at 2:05pm | IP Logged | 7  

I agree with Michael and JW.  Old comics are still readable (even ones I hadn't read).  Many newer books are incredibly opaque.

The problem seems to end at the border, though.  I can't say I've run into the opacity problem with (say) Japanese manga, so I'm pointing the finger squarely at Big Two books as they are now.  A good Japanese book like Death Note is both way deeper and way clearer than any new Big Two book I've picked up in possibly decades.

I think there's a good reason why serial Manga translate well into serial Anime:  Solid story-telling.  I actually did start the Death Note anime in the middle, before realizing it was so good I had to start from the beginning and go buy the books (which the Anime follows admirably). 


As for outgrowing comics, I still maintain that comics can be anything and made for anyone.  It's a choice that American comics are largely Superhero books.  They can be anything and targeted at any audience, rather than the narrow audience the Big Two have. The above-noted Japanese do this as a matter of course.
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Stephen Robinson
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Posted: 17 November 2014 at 2:10pm | IP Logged | 8  

LARS: Sam Wilson taking over 'The Mantle' of Captain
America rather than continuing his career as The
Falcon diminishes his identity as a crime fighter imo.
If we buy into these characters as real people, then I
feel bad for Sam, because its like his identity isn't
important enough to preserve when his pal Steve can't
continue in his role as Cap.


SER: I agree. Cap is a symbol, yes, but precisely
because of *who* he is -- not his uniform. Dick
Grayson becoming Batman (temporarily) makes slightly
more sense because one can argue the "symbol" of
Batman on the streets of Gotham is more effective than
the "symbol" of Nightwing when it comes to scaring the
heck out of criminals. Bluntly put, I doubt anyone is
going to think that Sam's Captain America is the same
guy so what's been accomplished.

What's next? Black Panther becomes Daredevil? It's
kind of insulting.
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Vinny Valenti
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Posted: 17 November 2014 at 2:29pm | IP Logged | 9  

SER:What's next? Black Panther becomes Daredevil? It's
kind of insulting.

Dunno If you were being sarcastic or not, but Black Panther
DID actually replace Daredevil in his title a while backl, but he didn't actually become
Daredevil.

Personally I don't have a problem with Sam Wilson as Captain America in itself....yes it's
pretty clear that it's a different guy behind the suit, but Sam's put in enough time as Cap's
partner that at least the choice does not seem to come out of left field solely for the sake of
having a Black Captain America.

But what I DO have a problem with is that he's maintaining the falcon wings as Cap! Sorry, but
a Captain America that flies is NOT Captain America. It's just the Falcon in a red white and
blue suit.
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Paul Greer
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Posted: 17 November 2014 at 5:07pm | IP Logged | 10  

Brevoort is considered by many to be one of the good guys at Marvel
and well respected.
*****************
Now you are really playing the devil's advocate.
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Brian Rhodes
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Posted: 17 November 2014 at 5:19pm | IP Logged | 11  

But I am loving the characters in practically all other media except in comics. Could it be that they simply suck at the job of making comics?

MMMMMMmmmm.....could be.

I don't think I've outgrown comics as much as most of those currently producing them think they have.

I still re-read a lot of older superhero comics, mostly 70's and 80's stuff, mostly Marvel. While there certainly is some nostalgia there, I find I still enjoy a lot of the books because they simply hold up well. And yes, you can read them at 6, 16, and 46, and still enjoy them while likely getting, at least, a slightly different experience each time.




Edited by Brian Rhodes on 17 November 2014 at 5:23pm
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Andrew W. Farago
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Posted: 17 November 2014 at 5:22pm | IP Logged | 12  

I've enjoyed Rick Remender's run on Captain America, and will definitely stick with it now that Stuart Immonen is taking over as the artist.  Yes, we all know this is temporary, but given that Marvel didn't realize that Falcon was going to steal every scene in The Winter Soldier movie, they must have figured that this was the best way to put him over as a character and make sure that he'd have an audience for his own solo book within the next couple of years. 

Marvel and DC have both learned over and over again (based on how comic shops order books and based on what customers buy) that rolling out any character that hasn't always had his own title in a new series will result in a book that lasts 6-12 issues before cancellation.  Building up a character like Hawkeye or Guardians of the Galaxy with a big push and tying it into a new movie or an existing book--that kind of thing results in Rocket Raccoon being the top-selling book in its first month and becoming a perennial seller.  They do seem to be getting smarter about all of this.

As to whether it's a good read or not, sure, everything's different than it was 20 or 30 years ago.  The industry's different, readership's different, distribution is different.  Kids read comics by the millions today, just not superhero comics.  Maybe Marvel and DC can change that, maybe not.  Maybe the new Star Wars comics will bring in the same influx of new readers that the original did 40 years ago.  Who knows?
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