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Andrew W. Farago
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Posted: 23 April 2015 at 6:14pm | IP Logged | 1  

Bendis is wrapping up his run on X-Men soon, before all the Secret Wars stuff kicks into high gear, so I don't think he'll get to spend very many pages dealing with the fallout from this.  We'll see.
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Matt Hawes
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Posted: 23 April 2015 at 6:33pm | IP Logged | 2  

 Jason wrote:
...If it's done by Marvel Comics, Stan is always (officially) in favor of it.  He never publicly criticizes anything done by Marvel Comics...


Not quite...

STAN LEE reacts to SPIDER-MAN being bi-sexual


Stan is generally supportive of Marvel, but on occasion he does have a dissenting opinion.


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Matt Hawes
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Posted: 23 April 2015 at 6:35pm | IP Logged | 3  

 Bill wrote:
...Remember when the rumors went out that Spider-Man might be made gay in the movies? Stan didn't seem pleased with that news when asked about it..


Yep. The video I linked to above I shot myself (sorry for the camera work, but I was zooming in from a distance) at Fandomfest at the time Stan was told about that news.


Edited by Matt Hawes on 23 April 2015 at 6:37pm
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Rick Whiting
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Posted: 23 April 2015 at 6:46pm | IP Logged | 4  

Mike Carey wrote X-Men for several years, with Iceman as part of his roster, and he didn't think this was an out-of-nowhere revelation. No one who's written the character in the past has made any public complaint either--Stan Lee, Roy Thomas, Chris Claremont, Louise Simonson... With all the comics news sites trying to rack up hits and generate controversy, you'd think if anyone had an objection, they'd have voiced it by now.

_________________________


They won't say anything against it because they don't want to be labeled as "homophobic" and blacklisted. In these overly PC times, this is one of those things that most creators don't want to publicly object to. Just look what happened to Chuck Dixon after he objected to the Rawhide Kid being retconned into being gay.
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Jason Czeskleba
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Posted: 23 April 2015 at 7:03pm | IP Logged | 5  

 Matt Hawes wrote:
Stan is generally supportive of Marvel, but on occasion he does have a dissenting opinion.


That's not an example of Stan reacting negatively to a Marvel product.  He's reacting to what you described as a "half joking" suggestion by Andrew Garfield.  Garfield doesn't represent Marvel and isn't their employee, so Stan being critical of something he said isn't equivalent to being critical of Marvel.

I can't think of a single instance of Stan being publicly critical of an actual Marvel product anytime in the past 20 years.  To the contrary, he's offered positive opinions of many of the retcons and gimmicky stunts that we moan about here.  I'm sure he has critical views behind the scenes, but in his public pronouncements he views himself as an unstinting cheerleader and goodwill ambassador for the company.
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Matt Hawes
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Posted: 23 April 2015 at 7:06pm | IP Logged | 6  

 Kip Lewis wrote:
...Wasn't Iceman 15 or 16 years old in his
first appearance?   I always thought he
was the same age as Peter and Johnny. Is
he really too young to notice girls?..


I agree with what you are saying about his age, but I also believe that is what Stan Lee and Jack Kirby's intent was when writing the scene: That Bobby was the youngest, and had not yet developed an interest in girls. Heck, maybe they meant Bobby to be a bit younger at first, about 13, then decided he was a bit older later. I don't recall when his actual age was first given.

The real question is does anyone with any real understanding of the period think that Stan Lee and Jack Kirby meant to say Bobby was gay in that panel in a 1963 comic book? Really?

 Andrew wrote:
...No one who's written the character in the past has made any public complaint either--Stan Lee, Roy Thomas, Chris Claremont, Louise Simonson...  With all the comics news sites trying to rack up hits and generate controversy, you'd think if anyone had an objection, they'd have voiced it by now...


Maybe, maybe not. Again, I refer to the video I linked to above where Stan first learned about the proposal by Andrew Garfield that Spider-Man could be bi-sexual. That was a couple of weeks or so after that story came out, but clearly Stan was just hearing this news for the very first time at that con.


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Matt Hawes
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Posted: 23 April 2015 at 7:11pm | IP Logged | 7  

 Jason wrote:
...That's not an example of Stan reacting negatively to a Marvel product.  He's reacting to what you described as a "half joking" suggestion by Andrew Garfield.  Garfield doesn't represent Marvel and isn't their employee, so Stan being critical of something he said isn't equivalent to being critical of Marvel....


I was there, and Stan didn't hear the question at all the first time. If you watch the video, I don't know if Stan realizes whether it's the comics or the movies that wants to make Peter Parker bi-sexual, frankly. I don't doubt his reaction would have been different either way.

No doubt, Stan usually supports Marvel publicly -- He is usually very positive about most things, hardly ever criticizing anything (except jokingly) -- But, I do believe he can disagree with Marvel on occasion.
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Matt Hawes
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Posted: 23 April 2015 at 7:16pm | IP Logged | 8  

 Jason wrote:
...He's reacting to what you described as a "half joking" suggestion by Andrew Garfield..


Oh, and by the way, that's Andrew Garfield, himself, that described what he said as "half-joking," not me. I just reported what he said:

Andrew Garfield:

"...I was kind of joking, but kind of not joking about MJ. And I was like, ‘What if MJ is a dude?’ Why can’t we discover that Peter is exploring his sexuality?  It’s hardly even groundbreaking! … So why can’t he be gay? Why can’t he be into boys?..."


Were you meaning to imply I made that up, Jason?



Edited by Matt Hawes on 23 April 2015 at 7:17pm
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Jason Czeskleba
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Posted: 23 April 2015 at 7:33pm | IP Logged | 9  

 Matt Hawes wrote:
Were you meaning to imply I made that up, Jason?

No, not at all.  I didn't mean to suggest anything of the sort and if it came across that way I apologize.  I put it the way I did because I didn't actually look up Garfield's original comments, so I was relying only on your description of them.  You described the comments as half joking, so I referenced that fact.

I sure can't think of any instance of Stan criticizing an actual Marvel product anytime in the past couple of decades.  That was my point.
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Kip Lewis
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Posted: 23 April 2015 at 8:50pm | IP Logged | 10  


I sure can't think of any instance of Stan criticizing an
actual Marvel product anytime in the past couple of
decades. That was my point.
.......

I read that Stan publicly said he did not like the movie
Hulk. I think he was referring to the first one because he
said that Hulk doesn't grow like that.
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 23 April 2015 at 10:47pm | IP Logged | 11  

 Andrew W Farago wrote:
I've got the same reaction to all of this as I've had when any friend, acquaintance, or celebrity has come out of the closetif it makes him happy, that's great.  I don't spend time thinking about whether it makes sense, if I'd seen it coming, who that person had been dating before, and it doesn't change my own relationship to that person one bit.

I, too, have no problem when anyone I know decides to declare who they are.  If that makes them happy, who am I to judge?  That said, they're real people.  Bobby Drake isn't.  He's what authors make him.  He's never been someone who has gone through what closeted people have gone through.  Ever.  He's never had to hide himself, pretend to be someone that he wasn't or feel ashamed that he's not "normal" other than having the powers that he does.  That's exactly why I think this and any other retcon in the same fashion is the job of a hack.  Take superficial "clues" written in fanfic and discussed on fan message boards and incorporate it into a canonical story without having to do the work of actually exploring that character, setting them up to feel the headache and pain.  Just state that Drake is coming out and that's enough?  Maybe a couple of issues where it's a subplot but no exploration?  

You live in SF and so you say that makes you more open to LGBT issues.  I've lived in major cities, work in the entertainment industry and got my Masters in Acting.  I know a thing or two about LGBT.  I'm certainly wide open to the concept myself and have been cool with it my entire life.  That said?  The rest of the country hasn't caught up.  There's still a long way to go.  So I think it a terrible disservice to not only a longstanding character like Bobby Drake but the LGBT community at large to slap on a coat of "gay paint" and call it a day.
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David Miller
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Posted: 23 April 2015 at 11:47pm | IP Logged | 12  

Reminds me of something President Obama said:

 QUOTE:
As a general rule, things don’t like end well if the sentence starts, “Let me tell you something I know about the negro.” You don’t really need to hear the rest of it. Just a tip for you -- don’t start your sentence that way.



Edited by David Miller on 24 April 2015 at 12:00am
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