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Jason Larouse
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Posted: 01 July 2015 at 12:43pm | IP Logged | 1  

C'mon Dan, I qualified my statement. There are people that still grumble about it, but they still buy the books. There are people who still grumble about the Clone Saga too.
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Andy Mokler
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Posted: 01 July 2015 at 1:01pm | IP Logged | 2  

Everywhere else in the world, they'd be piles of angry ashes on the floor.

Baloney.  It's that kind of attitude that's poisoned the industry.  Look at the recent Spider-Man cartoons.  Spectacular Spider-Man was done very well and was popular.  Peter didn't need to be aged and catered toward a similarly aging fanbase clamoring for the characters to also age.

Look at Star Wars.  Didn't they just press reset on much of their universe?  But the new movie is still pretty much breaking the internet every time a new trailer comes out.

Just because a character is established doesn't mean his stories are going to be boring unless he's re-invented.


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Kevin Brown
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Posted: 01 July 2015 at 1:13pm | IP Logged | 3  

Don't mind me, I'm just going to sit here and munch on popcorn as this highly entertaining conversation continues.
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Andy Mokler
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Posted: 01 July 2015 at 1:26pm | IP Logged | 4  

Isn't the crux of the argument being offered that the characters have to change otherwise the fans will leave?

And isn't the reality the exact opposite?  The characters have been changing at a record pace and more readers leave than stay or join in.
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 01 July 2015 at 1:32pm | IP Logged | 5  

 You're asking why can't we just-please-stay-inside-the-preestablished-lines? And in the long run, that's a sure fire path towards predictability.
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Just as a comparison, tales have been told about Robin Hood for more than half a millennium. By your logic, if I was to tell a Robin Hood story it would be predictable and boring if it was set in Sherwood forest with a band of merry men fighting the sheriff of Nottingham. But for any sane person, staying within the pre-established lines that define the character are pre-requisites.

Think of any long-running fictional character. By definition, the archetypal story for that character must live within those pre-established lines. Steer outside those lines briefly makes for an interesting diversion. Camp outside those lines long enough to permanently alter the character and you are selfishly depriving future generations of the character that you have enjoyed.

I've enjoyed the BBC's approach of putting Sherlock Holmes into a modern-day context. But I'd be crazy to want that to be the starting point for the next version of Sherlock Holmes.
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Andrew W. Farago
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Posted: 01 July 2015 at 1:38pm | IP Logged | 6  

I was skeptical about Brand New Day, since I was a big fan of the Mary Jane/Peter Parker marriage, and One More Day was the most poorly executed story since...well, let's just say I wasn't a big fan of Sins Past or Civil War.  But those ended up being really fun Spider-Man stories that really got the character. 

I was skeptical about Superior Spider-Man, since I was a big fan of Peter Parker not being dead, but that ended up being a really entertaining (and temporary) story where we got to find out what happened to the supervillain who got everything he ever wanted.

Now I'm skeptical all over again about Parker Industries, but Slott and co. haven't let me down yet. 

Teenage Miles Morales seems to be that nice compromise between teenage, high school Spider-Man, whom we haven't seen in a modern Marvel Universe comic for 50 years(!) and the fact that rolling back Peter Parker to that age would require a company-wide reboot or for Marvel to make a bigger change to the character than they want to do in the comics right now. 
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Adam Hutchinson
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Posted: 01 July 2015 at 1:39pm | IP Logged | 7  


 QUOTE:
Isn't the crux of the argument being offered
that the characters have to change otherwise the fans
will leave?


Seems to me this discussion is boiling down to what is
considered the core of a character and what's not. A
distinction which, for the most part, is highly
subjective, not just for the person but across media
as well.

Ultimately, if you don't like what's being done with a
character, don't buy the book. If you do, buy it.
Nothing is accomplished, though, by claiming people
don't get it, or are lazy, or whatever. Takes all
kinds.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 01 July 2015 at 1:40pm | IP Logged | 8  

You're asking why can't we just-please-stay-inside-the-preestablished-lines? And in the long run, that's a sure fire path towards predictability.

••

Yeah, look at that crap Lee and Kirby churned out for a hundred issues of FANTASTIC FOUR. Black Panther, Galactus, Inhumans, Super Skrull, Annihilus, Psychoman, etc, etc. Saw 'em all coming a mile away!!!

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Michael Penn
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Posted: 01 July 2015 at 1:42pm | IP Logged | 9  

Let's see... hmm... what to do with Jane Foster? What to do? Jeez! She's so uninteresting! I dunno, hmm... wait! I got it! I'll make her THOR...!  That's it! Ha ha! I'm a GREAT writer!
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Don Zomberg
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Posted: 01 July 2015 at 1:53pm | IP Logged | 10  

Lee and Kirby also sold a few more copies of their titles than today's "unpredictable" creators do. The guys running the show now want a pat on the back just for keeping the patient on life support. Bravo.

Edited by Don Zomberg on 01 July 2015 at 1:54pm
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James Woodcock
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Posted: 01 July 2015 at 1:59pm | IP Logged | 11  

My main issue with a lot of these status quo changing story lines id the length of them.

Major status quo changes should be done in a few months, a year tops. The problem I find now is that status quo changes last a number of years, and are then followed by another status quo change, further away from the original as  new layers are added.

It has thus got to the stage where for a lot of characters, they have moved too far from what made them them.

Furthermore, the sheer VOLUME of status quo changes results in a situation where an entire line bears little resemblance to where it should be. So where do I look to find stories that are set in the parameters to which I am familiar? Too much change all at once leads to unfamiliarity.

Think back to the first SECRET WARS. There were many changes instigated through that series - Spider-Man got a black costume, The Thing was marooned on another world, Iron Man got an enhanced suit, Kitty and Colossus split up etc.

SOME lasted a while (Thing, Spider-Man), some lasted not one issue - enhanced Iron Man suit. Did any last a year? I'm not sure they did.

So as a reader, I knew that I would see the character back within a year. Again, compare the length of the Beta Ray Bill saga (4 issues) with the female Thor saga (8 issues just to find out who she actually is).

And let's not forget my old favourite -  8 years went by without seeing the original Avengers together.

Dan, I know you are getting a lot of negative comments here and respect to you for remaining engaged. My main point was that I actually don't think I ever wanted to see Peter Parker become a corporate leader, raining in money from his inventions. That's Tony Stark, that's Reed Richards, that's Bruce Wayne. Peter Parker will always have the Parker luck take it away, before he gets it - and that doesn't fundamentally change his character.

To become a corporate leader can only go two ways as I see it - 1) he remains that as his new status quo. That's not what I want to read about in Spider-man forever.
2) It gets taken away at some point. This too changes the status quo forever. Because now he really has tasted the limelight and success. And that he has lost it will be etched on his mind forever. The only way that might work is if he voluntarily gives it up. And to be honest? That was pretty much done with the Iron Spider story line where he worked for Tony Stark.

So, as a short event - might be interesting but likely to have long term, if not forever status quo effect (a bit like Spider-man joining the Avengers, or Wolverine becoming the respectable one in X-Men, or making Professor X a total git). As a long term change of circumstances? Please no, as that is not who Peter Parker is.

That I can read about someone who is in high school and who dresses as Spider-Man in another comic doesn't count in this discussion I'm afraid. Because that someone is not Peter Parker and it is Peter Parker in whom I am invested.
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John Byrne
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Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 01 July 2015 at 2:03pm | IP Logged | 12  

Dan, I know you are getting a lot of negative comments here and respect to you for remaining engaged.

•••

Seriously? I suggest you raise by several notches the level of accomplishment needed to win your respect!

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