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Topic: Is Stan Lee Damaged Goods ? (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Brian Skelley
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Posted: 31 August 2015 at 2:06pm | IP Logged | 1  

I will always hold a special place in my heart for Stan. I don't think I would have loved comics as much if he hadn't whipped up my interest like he did as Marvel's hype man back when I was a child. I remember reading those snippets and thinking I had to love Marvel and not DC because he made me believe.
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Robbie Moubert
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Posted: 31 August 2015 at 3:40pm | IP Logged | 2  

Stan was 38 when Fantastic Four #1 came out, that's hardly "just still out of his adolescence."
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David Miller
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Posted: 31 August 2015 at 4:13pm | IP Logged | 3  

Just the other week I called a man in his forties an adolescent because he was crying. Irritable language seldom survives a fact check. 
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 31 August 2015 at 4:52pm | IP Logged | 4  

David: Irritable language seldom survives a fact check.

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It should if you're using it to back up your version of events. Jack didn't call Stan an adolescent, he said Stan had just gotten out of it-- as a way to explain the unlikely crying he recalls Stan doing. Being 38 in 1961 is not, by any reasonable account, being just out of adolescence. But take out that bit of "supporting" info, and how believable does the rest of the story seem?

Not to mention that Marvel never stopped producing comics and certainly did not start up again on the off chance that Kirby's latest brainstorm was just too good to not at least give a shot! I guess the rest of Kirby's story is that since Martin was so moved by his faith in Jack Kirby's new unseen ideas that he agreed to have ol' sobby Stan Lee move all the furniture back into the office? Hmm. Martin had seen a few too many Kirby creations crater by that time for this version of events to hold any water.
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Tony Tower
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Posted: 31 August 2015 at 8:38pm | IP Logged | 5  

All purely speculative of course.  But suppose Jack had never come to Marvel and Stan had picked another artist for the Fantastic Four?  

Let's say it was a modest success...not as great as what Stan and Jack could do together...but good enough to launch some more super heroes....Thor, Iron Man, etc. (again...all without Jack).  

And then Amazing Fantasy #15 comes out by Stan and Steve.   

So Kirby would not have been one of the main builders of Marvel as we know it...but we still would have had Marvel's greatest individual success all the same. 

This presupposes the notion that all these characters were invented whole cloth by Stan, and Kirby et al were just brought in to illustrate Stan's ideas. Since Kirby, Ditko, and other Marvel artists from that era dispute that, it's probably safest to count the characters as co-creations of the writer AND artist.
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Tony Tower
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Posted: 31 August 2015 at 9:02pm | IP Logged | 6  

…Kirby's art becoming the house style…

••

Really? REALLY?? Must this always be trotted out? Kirby the house style? When also at the company were the very artists you named. Did they all draw like Kirby? Were they asked to?

Please, let's kill this myth. I've been fighting it for more than forty years!!

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The notion of Kirby's art as "house style," I think, comes from people misunderstanding stories of Stan asking Kirby to do layouts for artists to get them acquainted with the new Marvel dynamism. These artists work was always their own, but the dramatic Lee-ordered layouts by Kirby were certainly an inspiration and yardstick for comparison.

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Robert Bradley
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Posted: 31 August 2015 at 10:30pm | IP Logged | 7  

That Comics Journal interview is just preposterous.

Stan has undoubtedly overstated his role in the creation of many of the characters (although I truly believe he thinks that's how it went), but I think what Kirby says in the interview is just delusional.  And that's sad.
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 01 September 2015 at 1:02am | IP Logged | 8  

 Tony Tower wrote:
 The notion of Kirby's art as "house style," I think, comes from people misunderstanding stories of Stan asking Kirby to do layouts for artists to get them acquainted with the new Marvel dynamism. These artists work was always their own, but the dramatic Lee-ordered layouts by Kirby were certainly an inspiration and yardstick for comparison.

I hope we can agree that a "point of comparison" is far different from a "house style".  The former expresses the energy requested in the story irrespective of how you achieve that particular dynamism, the latter expresses a desire to copy the energy someone else is putting on the page so much so that it becomes the defining characteristic of an entire line of comic books.  I think we can all say that Kirby, nor Ditko for that matter, was ever a "house style".
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Anthony J Lombardi
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Posted: 01 September 2015 at 3:41am | IP Logged | 9  

This was shared on Facebook on Jack Kirby's the other day in honor of Jack Kirby's 98th birthday. It's an interesting phone interview on public radio. From 1987. Besides being an interesting listen because it's Kirby. I'm sharing it because Stan calls in to wish Jack a happy birthday. It's an interesting conversation.



Edited by Anthony J Lombardi on 01 September 2015 at 3:41am
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John Byrne
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Posted: 01 September 2015 at 4:30am | IP Logged | 10  

It's an interesting phone interview on public radio. From 1987. Besides being an interesting listen because it's Kirby. I'm sharing it because Stan calls in to wish Jack a happy birthday. It's an interesting conversation.

••

But is it interesting? :)

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John Byrne
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Posted: 01 September 2015 at 4:36am | IP Logged | 11  

All purely speculative of course. But suppose Jack had never come to Marvel and Stan had picked another artist for the Fantastic Four?

Let's say it was a modest success...not as great as what Stan and Jack could do together...but good enough to launch some more super heroes....Thor, Iron Man, etc. (again...all without Jack).

And then Amazing Fantasy #15 comes out by Stan and Steve.   

••

Remove Kirby from the equation, and this whole sequence doesn't happen.

One can debate as much as one like the "importance" of Jack Kirby in the history of Marvel, but when engaging in "speculation" of this kind it must be remembered that Stan's favorite artist thru the Fifties was Joe Maneely. If he had not been killed in a subway accident in 1958, it would almost certainly have been him who Stan called upon to illustrate that first FANTASTIC FOUR issue, and most likely Maneely who was also called in, as Kirby had been, to provide the art for the first Spider-Man story.

And unlike what happened with Kirby, Stan might have liked Maneely's version of Spider-Man, and Ditko would not have come into the picture.

(Incidentally, for those who sometimes wonder about my war on Wikipedia, a friend sent me this from their article on Maneely: "Talented and well-respected, he died in a commuter-train accident shortly before Marvel's ascendancy into a commercial and pop-cultural conglomerate."

(1958 was three years before the publication of FANTASTIC FOUR 1, and decades before Marvel could be considered a "conglomerate.")

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Anthony J Lombardi
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Posted: 01 September 2015 at 5:14am | IP Logged | 12  

But is it interesting? :)
````````
Not really :)


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