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Eric Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 2294
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| Posted: 22 September 2016 at 6:33pm | IP Logged | 1
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If the newsstands want higher-priced, thicker magazines, I don't understand why the Big Two don't have newsstand departments and market 64 or 100-page magazines to newsstands and supermarkets, etc. I know they've tried this with some kids magazines, but even kids can tell when publishers aren't trying very hard and that these stories don't "count." Why isn't there a monthly or bi-monthly SUPERMAN magazine? Or BATMAN or SPIDER-MAN, etc.?
I would say these magazines should just reprint the latest two or four issues of the comics, but I don't think those would sell since they're mired in crossovers and continuity minutiae. Instead, the magazines could hire the very best talent and do quality stories based on the classic versions of the characters. And, in the back, perhaps reprint the best of the past--O'Neil/Adams BATMAN stories, Englehart/Rogers DETECTIVE COMICS stories, Moench/Gulacy LEGENDS OF THE DARK KNIGHT, etc. For SUPERMAN, I would reprint the Byrne material.
Archie digests are in every supermarket across the country and that's the only reason they survived all these years. Same thing with MAD MAGAZINE. Dark Horse Comics seems committed to their DARK HORSE PRESENTS anthology, which seems perfect for newsstands, but I only see it in comics shops, where an $8 anthology (the best of which savvy old-time readers KNOW will soon be available in trades) is less popular.
The popularity of trades seems to echo the days when the SUPERMAN comic first appeared--64 pages of one character? The trades in book stores might be gaining new readers that never walked into a comics shop, but I think magazine anthologies would probably work better.
Edited by Eric Jansen on 22 September 2016 at 6:35pm
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Darin Henry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 September 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 61
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| Posted: 22 September 2016 at 9:47pm | IP Logged | 2
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Eric, I think the challenge with magazine-sized reprint collections is that the most dedicated pool of buyers already owns the stories they contain. And what would be the best cover price to lure the non-fans to try a book?
Now if for example Marvel decided to publish their upcoming Spider-man clone story in that 64 page format and distributed it same day and date at supermarkets (likely with a >ugh< supermarket exclusive variant) at a low introductory price it might work. But the accountants probably wouldn't risk it since it would likely still fail to make much profit.
This is all stuff I'm giving a lot of thought to these days as you already know.
Edited by Darin Henry on 22 September 2016 at 9:50pm
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Robert Shepherd
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 March 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 1268
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| Posted: 22 September 2016 at 9:54pm | IP Logged | 3
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I'm pretty sure magazines don't make their majority of profits through sales. For them, it's all about the advertisements. Can you ever imagine a 100-page comic book with at least 50% of the book as ads?
Edited by Robert Shepherd on 22 September 2016 at 9:55pm
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Eric Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 2294
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| Posted: 22 September 2016 at 10:19pm | IP Logged | 4
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MAD MAGAZINE, HEAVY METAL, LIFE WITH ARCHIE just went three years, VAMPIRELLA went a long time, there's a new horror magazine called THE CREEPS, Disney always has some comic digest or magazine going, Bongo has larger-than-normal comics on the stands, SAVAGE SWORD OF CONAN went forever (until the quality went down), Marvel does keep trying with various kids versions of SPIDER-MAN or AVENGERS--obviously it CAN be done, if the will is there. It doesn't have to cost $10 and it doesn't have to be 50% ads.
And if the point is to reach new readers, then it doesn't matter if it's new stories or old reprints, as long as the quality is there. But, sure, give us brand new stories every time...as long as the artists are the best--Neal Adams (still!), Terry Dodson, Frank Cho, Steve McNiven, Jim Cheung, etc.--these guys could sell a magazine! We just need writers that can tell a compelling story in less than 64 pages.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132338
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| Posted: 23 September 2016 at 5:57am | IP Logged | 5
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…done this way, i have no idea how they could have paid creators…•• By not paying very much! When I started at Marvel my page rate was $33 for pencils. The very next month they cut the number of pages from 18 to 17, and bumped my rate to $35 to compensate. (That bit of math should tell anyone that the money paid to the talent was only a small part of the whole.) When royalties came in, things got better for us wage slaves. From each issue of CLASSIC X-MEN that reprinted my work, for instance, I was paid a royalty that was more than I had made from my page rate on the original publication. (Contrary to popular belief, there were no royalties back then.) In "recent" years, tho, I have twice taken a cut in my page rate in order to help keep books alive. Once at DC, on FOURTH WORLD, and once at IDW on NEW VISIONS. What is paid the talent HAS become a consideration. Times change.
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James Woodcock
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 7630
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| Posted: 23 September 2016 at 8:14am | IP Logged | 6
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Wait, you've had to take a page cut to keep NEW VISION alive? Gah!!! This should be the top selling ST comic ever!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 23 September 2016 at 9:05am | IP Logged | 7
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It might be -- if TOS fans only knew it existed. But my recent experiences in Vegas and NYC told me the vast majority do not. Fans at both cons flocked to IDW's booth when they heard about the book, but the vast majority are uninformed.
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Joseph Greathouse
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Joined: 19 August 2015
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Posts: 588
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| Posted: 23 September 2016 at 10:09am | IP Logged | 8
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Marketing might help. Aside from the occasional review on a Trek or comic site, there is nary a word. With the positive effect of fans flocking to you at the con, perhaps it is time to hit the (virtual) streets and promote your work.
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Paul W. Sondersted, Jr.
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Joined: 17 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 276
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| Posted: 23 September 2016 at 10:32am | IP Logged | 9
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JB, since Chris Ryall was sitting right next to you at the Vegas convention, how sore were his ribs after you continuously elbowed him after hearing from fans about their lack of knowledge about your TOS series?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 23 September 2016 at 11:09am | IP Logged | 10
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Not at all. Its hardly his fault. Theres rarely been much crossover between TV fans and comic fans, and now the comics are harder to find than theyve ever been.
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Dave Phelps
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
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| Posted: 23 September 2016 at 6:36pm | IP Logged | 11
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Eric Jansen wrote:
| If the newsstands want higher-priced, thicker magazines, I don't understand why the Big Two don't have newsstand departments and market 64 or 100-page magazines to newsstands and supermarkets, etc. |
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I know Marvel's tried (not just with "kid's books," but they've also done magazine sized reprints of the Ultimate titles, thicker comic sized reprints of current titles, etc.), but I think the problem is they were trying to generate a "newsstand product." For continued profitability, you need to be selling the same product to multiple venues; not doing custom jobs.
QUOTE:
| I know they've tried this with some kids magazines, but even kids can tell when publishers aren't trying very hard and that these stories don't "count." Why isn't there a monthly or bi-monthly SUPERMAN magazine? Or BATMAN or SPIDER-MAN, etc.? Instead, the magazines could hire the very best talent and do quality stories based on the classic versions of the characters. And, in the back, perhaps reprint the best of the past |
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You'd have the same problem with stories "not counting."
QUOTE:
| Dark Horse Comics seems committed to their DARK HORSE PRESENTS anthology, which seems perfect for newsstands, |
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It's a frequently enjoyable book, but I disagree. More in a sec.
When all is said and done, the problem is that a lot of (most, really) comics are produced For Fans. And by that I don't mean people who've been around for decades or what have you. I mean a number of things -
* They're produced for fans who intend to stick around - they bought the previous issue, they bought the current issue, they'll buy the next one, etc.
* They're produced for fans who are always looking for more - so there's a half dozen X-titles, three Squadron Supreme(?!) books, a few Avengers teams, etc. (Or there's DC's accelerated publishing.)
* They're produced for fans who don't want to buy material they may not be interested in, so every feature gets its own book.
* They're produced for fans of the artists - so the artists get to put their "artistic spin" on things, costumes are changed will-nilly (with exceptions), etc.
* They're produced for fans of the writers - so the writers get to write what they want regardless of whether or not it jibes with past portrayals of the characters (or currently ongoing in other books).
(And yes, those five priorities frequently contradict each other.)
Meanwhile, the newsstand is intended for the casual reader. You come in, look for something to read that day and it may be months before you come back for more, if ever. (Hence my disagreement with the DHP recommendation. That book tends to be 80-100% continued stories.) I'll admit that seems like an argument for your "best of the best" anthology, but profit margins are razor thin so what companies need to be doing is utilizing the same material for multiple markets rather than giving each its own (which also causes the "stories don't count" impression, anyway). And you want your markets to feed into each other rather than fighting each other. A comic store should be everything you'd see on the newsstand and then some, not a completely different array of titles.
So you have a "wider world" that wants more expensive product to sell to make it worth their time and you have the direct market whose customer base has been trained from the beginning to only get what they want. But you can't simply cut them out of the pattern because you'd be removing your "floor" for the material.
It's a long bridge to cross. For better or worse the decision made by the companies seems to be to cede the casual reader market to the trade paperbacks and leave the monthlies to "the fans". (Star Trek New Visions being a notable exception.)
To get back to a more dual purpose model, publishers (and I mean all of them) would likely need to consolidate their lines down to 8-12 books tops at $7.95-9.95 for 4-6 features. But that would be a hell of a market disruption that could be fatal to many shops and wouldn't necessarily make a dent in the newsstand. I can't blame companies for not taking the risk.
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Dave Phelps
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4179
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| Posted: 23 September 2016 at 7:04pm | IP Logged | 12
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Stephen Churay wrote:
| IMO, despite the number of books per title being down, if you are writing a top tier Marvel character, who happens to have the highest grossing movie of the year and can only push out 30,000 copies per issue, there is a serious problem. |
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Yeah, but it's hard to know what it is. I mean, I know I'M not buying any Marvels right now because I don't care for the content, but different people have different turn-offs. So other considerations, some self-inflicted by the companies, some not -
* It used to be that to get a particular character, you had one (maybe two) books to choose from. Now spin-offs are the norm. We have two Captain Americas (each in their own teams, IIRC), two Thors, etc. Heck, I think we're about to get a second Doctor Strange title. You can get Deadpool in any context you can think of at this point. Some will get both/all, but most will just pick their favorite. And some might be turned off by the extra stuff and drop the character altogether.
* There's more than one way to get a story. You have the single issue, the trade and digital, all competing for the same set of eyes. Some overlap, but a lot just pick their favorite format.
* We're no longer in a situation where the only Captain America stories widely available in a given month are the current issue and (maybe) a story in a reprint title. You have trades of old stories, back issues from places like ebay and online retailers, etc. You can get a new-to-you Captain America adventure every month and still get nowhere near the current title.
* Or maybe it IS because the content sucks and they can't put Steve Rogers in a decent costume anymore. :-)
(And now that I've blown through my Forum word budget for the next month...)
Edited by Dave Phelps on 23 September 2016 at 7:05pm
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Topic Closed)
