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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 14 September 2017 at 8:51pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Well, I do wonder (and I forgot to mention this when I posted the statue pic) if Marvel is marketing the "sexy" statues to a certain audience (perhaps older, more well-off, male fans with more disposable income) while the comics are aimed at a different audience (younger, progressive, female and/or "diverse"). 

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From my experience, one of the more popular artists among female comic fans is Adam Hughes, who does cheesecake. That tells me the  issue isn't really whether females are drawn "sexy", but whether they are objectified, because Hughes knows how to draw sexy women without being gross about it. 
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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 14 September 2017 at 9:50pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

I think Captain Marvel's androgenous look is from her latest comics. I can't be sure though, I don't read the books, but that's what they say.

Edited by Joe Zhang on 14 September 2017 at 9:51pm
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Adam Schulman
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Posted: 14 September 2017 at 10:18pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

"Short hair" on a woman does not automatically mean "lesbian" and never has. 

Female characters aren't required to be "sexy" either. 

Nor is there anything wrong with a female character looking androgynous. 

I prefer Carol's old costume because it had a better design because Dave Cockrum designed it.

But it had nothing to do with "sexyness."

Few men ever talk about the "sexyness" of male characters' costumes, after all. Few women, either. (One possible exception: Nightwing, since his third costume appeared.)


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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 14 September 2017 at 10:42pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply


 QUOTE:
Its not just the hair. Breasts gone.

Hips gone.

Short hair and slim body type does not equal androgynous. 

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Brian Floyd
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Posted: 15 September 2017 at 12:48am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

The costume Carol wears as Captain Marvel isn't one of my favorites, and wouldn't be even if they kept her body on-model. I just plain don't care for the design, and it wouldn't even look good on a man. I think it is supposed to look like a throwback to the old 1940s and 1950s movie serials, but its just.....ick.

Maybe a different color scheme? I don't know......

(I don't care the for the new Ms. Marvel's costume, either, by the way.)
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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 15 September 2017 at 1:11am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Re: Adam Schulman. Count me in as one of those who aren't as interested in the sex appeal of superhero characters, male or female. But it would be a silly way to lose female fans if they decided Nightwing's famous rear-end was too sexist. It's called "fan-service", which is known to make money, of which Mavel apparently doesn't need anymore. 

Edited by Joe Zhang on 15 September 2017 at 1:12am
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Conrad Teves
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Posted: 15 September 2017 at 1:28am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

An androgynous look does not imply sexual orientation one way or another. It also does not imply that it's NOT sexy either--see Twiggy.  For what it's worth, "sexy" does not imply "sexist" in any way.

In the case of Captain Marvel, doing a little more digging I'm willing to attribute this depiction to the peculiarities of Kris Anka's drawing style (who drew those images posted above), and not some kind of agenda on Marvel's part. For instance, the depiction on the cover of this new book by David Nakayama looks plenty female to me:
Link
And here's a google search of Kris Anka's Emma Frost (and concept designs), which seem...dialed back relative to how she is commonly depicted:
Link
I guess that's just how he draws women.
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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 15 September 2017 at 3:43am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

There's nothing wrong with creating a slender, short-haired female character (regardless of her sexual orientation), it's just disconcerting to so drastically change an established character.  (This seems to be related to other discussions about race-swapping, etc.)

So, on one hand, they're sexualizing and exaggerating characters created to be more average or normal-looking (like JB's Kitty or Cassie), and on the other hand they're stripping away breasts and hips from other characters.  Some of this can be attributed to an individual artist's style, but then you have to ask why an editor hired that artist to begin with.

So much of what Marvel's been doing lately looks and feels like old indie comics--and then they wonder why those comics are SELLING like old indie comics!  Was it really almost twenty years ago that Kurt Busiek and George Perez started their popular AVENGERS run--amidst concerns that such a straightforward super-hero comic wouldn't be successful in the (then) present marketplace?
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Adam Schulman
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Posted: 15 September 2017 at 3:52am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Re: Adam Schulman. Count me in as one of those who aren't as interested in the sex appeal of superhero characters, male or female. But it would be a silly way to lose female fans if they decided Nightwing's famous rear-end was too sexist. It's called "fan-service", which is known to make money, of which Mavel apparently doesn't need anymore.

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Joe -- I get it. That's why I made a "Nightwing exception."

And did you mean "sexist" or just "sexy"? I don't get how it's sexist to say "Dick Grayson has the best ass in the DC Universe."

(I keep wondering why DC doesn't publish a Nightwing and Power Girl comic. I suspect it would sell well, for obvious reasons.)
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 15 September 2017 at 4:23am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

There's nothing wrong with creating a slender, short-haired female character (regardless of her sexual orientation), it's just disconcerting to so drastically change an established character.  (This seems to be related to other discussions about race-swapping, etc.)

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It's a change visually, but arguably, her new look is more consistent with what's been established for the character. She's an Air Force officer and a feminist (she picked "Ms." for her superhero identity when that was a much more loaded term and was demanding equal pay from JJJ back in the 70s.)

I mean, I definitely prefer the Dave Cockrum costume, but what she's wearing now makes more sense for someone who was once a NASA security chief and would have been struggling to be taken seriously by men for most of her career.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 15 September 2017 at 5:48am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Some of this can be attributed to an individual artist's style, but then you have to ask why an editor hired that artist to begin with.

••

Celebrate artistic diversity! But remind the artist that his/her "style" is secondary to drawing the characters on model.

(If you want a lesson in how this can get crazy, Google to different artists who have drawn the Thing. A whole lot of "Here's how I do it!" going on.)

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Adam Schulman
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Posted: 15 September 2017 at 7:29am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Whenever I see people draw the Thing with articulated muscles -- or, god help me, a neck -- all I can think is my lord, you're doing it entirely wrong.
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