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Colin Ian Campbell
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Posted: 13 August 2018 at 3:06pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply


 QUOTE:
Running with a fairly radical concept isn't always decompression, though it's true that the biggest change of this sort that I can recall--Steve Rogers quitting as Cap (Captain America #180) in December 1974--only lasted FOUR issues.

Steve Englehart had Steve Rogers quit as Captain America in CA #176 and assume the Nomad identity in #180.
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Andrew Bitner
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Posted: 14 August 2018 at 8:05am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Thanks for the correction, Colin. Still, that's a grand total of eight issues. And nobody stepped into the role in his absence, Marvel didn't rename the book NOMAD... it's a whole other world now than it was then.
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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 14 August 2018 at 8:59am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Plus one cameo appearance of Nomad in the Avengers.

William F. - why not keep the original hero and create a new one? Because no one wants to be first and everyone wants to be second. As my friend Mr. Hague noted... " 'regular' readers are pretty much just fans of the logo and the name." A new character would likely either be a somewhat duplicate example of an existing hero, such as Captain America or Superman, and considered a rip off of an existing hero; or it would be an original character* and written off as an entirely unknown entity not worthy of attention when the readers want to buy the latest duplicate of Daredevil (but he's deaf! And Jewish! IT'S AMAZING!)

If there were new audience, then I think there would be room for new comics and characters. Shucks, if Marvel ended up wagging the dog, there might even be a market for new characters introduced in the movies. It makes me miss "Showcase" and "The Brave and the Bold" - DC's old tryout comics.

But right now, my impression is that the reader base is the one that's been around, and that wants to see THEIR characters in THEIR type of stories. New is anathema to them, and won't attract their dollars.

*And yes, there are plenty enough original concepts left for super heroes and villains.
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Dave Phelps
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Posted: 14 August 2018 at 11:13am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

 Andrew Bitner wrote:
Thanks for the correction, Colin. Still, that's a grand total of eight issues. And nobody stepped into the role in his absence,


Poor Roscoe. Boy gets no respect. :-)


 QUOTE:
Marvel didn't rename the book NOMAD... it's a whole other world now than it was then.


Yeah, now #176 would've been the final issue, #177-178 would've been a four part Falcon mini, the "people trying to be Cap" would be a collection of one-shots (and would include name characters), #179-183 would've been a Nomad mini-series, all building to a new Captain America #1 (with 10 variant covers).

I like the old way better.

 William Ferguson wrote:
Why not keep the original hero and instead of doing a knock off of that hero, create a new character?


Depends on the story being told.

From what I understand, Denny O'Neil had Jim Rhodes fill in for Tony Stark for 30(!) issues because he felt Demon in a Bottle ended a little too pat to be realistic. But if Tony Stark is going to hit rock bottom and stay there for a bit, then you need someone running around calling himself Iron Man for the duration.

John Walker Captain America and Jean-Paul Valley Batman were more of the "let's have someone fill-in to show there's only one TRUE <insert hero name>" variety.

Other examples have different reasons, but those cover the two main ones. Either way, you get a different take on an established character without causing permanent damage to the real one and you get to see different sides of the real versions.

With all of these, it the stories are good, they're good, and if they're not, they're not. But it's a card you can't play too often (really shouldn't more than once every two decades or so (if that) as far I'm concerned), so it makes sense to milk the notion as much as you can before restoring the status quo.

As for why not just use new characters, it wouldn't do the same job. Jane Thor isn't just about letting Jane play with the hammer; it's also about how Thor feels about someone else doing something he no longer can. If you just empower Jane, you lose that element of the story. With Superior you need Peter to see someone else living his life and what that other person did better and what that other person did worse or it's not the same story. It would also mean less to readers. Certain characters are "pillars" of their respective universes so there's the appeal of seeing a different character attempting to serve the same function in their own way. Can't do that with a newbie.

Marketing-wise, doing Something Different with an established character can juice sales a bit, and then so can returning them to glory.

Again, my opinions of individual stories vary. John Walker Captain America got me to read the book regularly and I pretty much stuck around for 15 years following before being driven off by the Marvel Knights relaunch. Jane Thor had me deciding to sit it out until the real Thor took back over. (Although this multi-hammer thing seems kind of silly so I don't know if I actually WILL come back.) But it's easy to see both creative and marketing reasons for doing so beyond "too lazy/risk-adverse to create new characters".
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 14 August 2018 at 11:21am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Mr Phelps makes some valid points, but as stated by someone else, it's the fact they dominate the books for 12-18 months. Or more!

A Hydra-Cap story in 1975 would probably have been 2 or 3 parts. But today it was a dozen or so issues - and lots of tie ins.
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Stephen Churay
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Posted: 16 August 2018 at 1:01am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Walt Simonson turned Thor into a frog. A
FROG. We were ok with it because, in total
it appeared in four issues. I respect the
writers need to change it up a bit but
come on.

Attention needs to be paid to the story
before it as well. When they made Hydra-
Cap, we already hadnt had Steve Rogers
Captain America for over a year. Putting
those stories back to back felt like
piling on. Its the reason i stopped
reading Marvel altogether.
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Patrick Lemaire
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Posted: 16 August 2018 at 7:28am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

If a character has endured for decades, then there are more than one version of the character that were successful. From my viewpoint the Michelinie/McFarlane Spider-Man was not (and still is not) Lee/Ditko's version (nor is it Lee/Romita's, Lee/Kane's, Conway/Andru's, etc).
The success of Michelinie/McFarlane certainly wasn't owed to being faithful to Lee/Ditko (I didn't like it, that's when I dropped the title)
Slott did many things in his ten-year stint and I enjoyed most of them.
Some of my preferred runs are Untold Tales and Sean McKeever's Mary Jane, so I do like the high school version but that has never prevented me from liking JMS' run (the run that made me return to following the character).

Now, the thread title is about the Hulk. Al Ewing decided to return to the horror roots of the character and that works beautifully. I like the Herb Trimpe Hulk, the Buscema Defenders Hulk, Peter David's Hulk, Bruce Jones' Hulk, Jason Aaron's Hulk (with Banner as a crazy Dr Moreau). These are all very different.
With only four issues, Al Ewing may prove to be the best writer. But most people wouldn't consider the Lee/Kirby run as horror. So does that prove the original version is the best? Remember Lee/Kirby Hulk got cancelled after six issues. But I'd say it was because it lacked an identity. Kirby tried to give him more powers with cosmic rays, including the power of flight, which Lee fixed at the writing stage! When you look at it, neither the FF, Spider-Man, Iron Man, nor Thor had a clear identity. They all faced the same array of aliens, monsters and freaks. And then Spider-Man narrowed to urban crime, Thor to mythology, Iron Man to corporate adventure and the FF to sci-fi.
But you have to wonder if what made these characters enduring was the multiple interpretations possible at their inception rather than the precise identity they settled on later.



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Mason Meomartini
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Posted: 16 August 2018 at 1:06pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

This whole thread is why I started a similar topic a few weeks ago about whether these gradual distortions of the characters over time was inevitable from the start.  Like computer files transferred from one storage system to another, they slowly build up corrupted data.  It seems there was no way all the people working on these characters for so long could possibly all keep the same understanding intact as they were passed from one team to another.  I wish it could have been.

I think Marvel makes these knock off characters instead of new ones because they know the new ones will just be derivatives of the originals.  The main characters like Spider-Man and Iron Man and the Hulk that Marvel started with use all the fundamental type of powers, visual designs, and personality archetypes that are out there.  The main Marvel heroes are like primary colors.  Everything else can only be a mix of them.  And that's why most new characters and the new knock offs usually fail in their own series, because they're secondary versions of the same elements.  At least they fail in this tiny market.  They're usually going to be weaker variations than the originals.  I love variations of characters or fictional settings like alternative universe stories like the ones in What If? or series like Planetary,Trio, and Triple Helix.  But for Marvel or DC to create new characters that can be even close to the cast they've already been working with for so long, I don't know how they could.  Besides Deadpool, sometimes Cable and Ghost Rider, maybe Darkhawk, and Sleepwalker seemed unique or at least unusual, not many characters from after the 60s or 70s stand out.

I think Marvel editors and creators know there's nothing new left to keep the attention of mostly the same readers they've had for decades.  I'm speaking in terms of the super hero genre.  There are lots of new settings and characters in independent comics.  All Marvel can do is try to split the main heroes into other versions like Red Hulk or Old Man Logan or Ultimate Spider-Man, or create younger versions like Ms. Marvel to pass on as much from the popularity of their original characters as they can.


Edited by Mason Meomartini on 16 August 2018 at 1:07pm
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Adam Schulman
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Posted: 16 August 2018 at 7:13pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Old Man Logan is going to be Dead Man Logan within a year, or so I've read. 

Doesn't bug me at all. The LOGAN movie was much better than the comics story that inspired it!

I'd have less of a problem with Miles Morales if he wasn't calling himself "Spider-Man." 
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Adam Schulman
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Posted: 16 August 2018 at 7:15pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Also, for the record, I thought JB handled John Walker/U.S. Agent in AVENGERS WEST COAST very, very well. 
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 16 August 2018 at 7:30pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Miles Morales is an interesting case; Brian Michael Bendis and Marvel went to some considerable trouble to clear a spot for him as the pre-eminent character of their entire Ultimate imprint. He was supposed to be Spider-Man; the one. The only. Accept no others... well, of course they had already vitiated the brand considerably by giving Peter a number of spider-powered friends including a female clone. Nevertheless, Miles was supposed to be that publishing line's go-to Spider-Man.

That the Ultimate line collapsed and was folded into the mainstream Marvel Universe is unfortunate, especially as it kicked Miles back into second-class status. A separate identity all his own in which he might shine might be seen as a good idea, but it could also be seen as the last step in stripping him of his status as the Spider-Man of the Ultimate Universe.

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William Ferguson
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Posted: 17 August 2018 at 1:31pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Some interesting points being made here. 

When I started this thread, I tried to make the point that I finally understood what John has been saying all these years. John was right about Dan S. not getting it. Dan tried to hold up the changes John made in the FF as a justification of his Spider-man run. Changing Spider-Man alter ego to Doc Ock was wrong, and he carried the story out way too long. 

Where Dan's stories good? To some. I'm not debating that. But he made changes to a character that up until that point everyone knew Spider-Mans alter ego was Peter Parker. 

Same with the Grey Hulk storyline... the Hulk is green, and that storyline was too long also. I honestly didn't care for it.

I get the argument that a new readers introduction to a character is his character. My point is don't make changes to that character that make a character that's been around for decades into something he's not. 

There have been runs on titles that resonate with a group. I get that. But Marvels brand, one that needs to be protected, is each of these characters. 

What characteristics of these characters makes them so appealing for so long? Is it Peter Parker is a guy that can't catch a break but never stops being a superhero? Boil it down to the characters fundamental essence, a specific set of powers, and you have your standard that everyone should follow.

If a creative team can't come up with any original ideas that are within the characters established personality and powers, then they shouldn't be on the title. 
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