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Ronald Joseph
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Posted: 17 August 2018 at 1:55pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Also, for the record, I thought JB handled John Walker/U.S. Agent in AVENGERS WEST COAST very, very well. 

Yeah. That's one of the many character arcs I wish I (we) could have seen played out to its proper end. 
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Mason Meomartini
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Posted: 17 August 2018 at 5:41pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

I just realized I kind of made it sound as if variations on the originals are always inferior, but sometimes I like them equally.  With the character or visual similarities to the Fantastic Four in Danger Unlimited, I loved them just as much as who they were based on.  Doesn't matter to me which came first.  Same with some of the characters in Astro City.  Sometimes the appeal for me isn't close to the original.  I like Midnighter and Apollo from The Authority, but not as much as Batman and Superman. They're still pretty good visually though.  With Triple Helix, Trio, and the Conclave, they're just as appealing as the X-Men, FF, and Avengers for me.  Partly because JB's design sense is so great.  These are all based on the original archetypes so are still pretty powerful representations.  In the same way, I think temporary replacement heroes are also visually fascinating, like the example mentioned here with U.S. Agent.  Always loved the costume and how it was similar to Captain America's but an interesting variant.  

It's when Marvel and DC create new characters, still derived from the original templates, but making the variations more distant, as much as they can, with characters like Motormouth and Killpower, or Annex from the 1993 Amazing Spider-Man annual, that things aren't as compelling.  The visuals and basis for the characters aren't lasting.  The further out the variations go, the less power those characters have to grip the audience.  

This has gone into a tangent from the topic that started this, but to bring this back to William's point, that's exactly what I think he's saying about the original main characters.  The further out you go from their original intention and depiction, the more off model you go into variations of their initial depiction, the less appealing and popular they are.  Neil Gaiman noticed this when the Hollywood movies started coming out about ten years ago with the first Hulk movie for example, when he said that it's interesting that there seems to be a correlation between when the movies don't do so well and the director taking characters away from their fundamental characterizations.  Maybe this isn't true in every case.  But it might be accurate most of the time.  

The Hulk is an interesting case because I wonder, even if the comic book market were more mainstream and the hardcore fans weren't the center, would the original Hulk be more popular than the intelligent Hulk?  Peter David wrote about that version for a really long arc that breaks the principle William described here.  What if a later version of a character is more popular with a large audience than the original?  Should the original still be adhered to?


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William Ferguson
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Posted: 17 August 2018 at 10:10pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

I remember when the first Hulk movie came out and a reviewer asked how can you make a movie about a green monster that goes around smashing things and make it boring to kids?


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Mason Meomartini
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Posted: 18 August 2018 at 5:44pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Yeah, by trying to make something like an art film out of it.
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William Ferguson
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Posted: 18 August 2018 at 9:09pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

If a character has endured for decades, then there are more than one version of the character that were successful. From my viewpoint the Michelinie/McFarlane Spider-Man was not (and still is not) Lee/Ditko's version (nor is it Lee/Romita's, Lee/Kane's, Conway/Andru's, etc).
The success of Michelinie/McFarlane certainly wasn't owed to being faithful to Lee/Ditko (I didn't like it, that's when I dropped the title)
—————-
It seemed to me that Todd was trying bring his artistic spin to the Ditko Spider-Man... big eye, lanky, awkward poses etc. Also, I don’t remember any story during that run were Spider-man was not Peter Parker.

The title of the thread has less to do with the Hulk then the point that Dan tried to justify what he was doing was okay because of what John had done. 

You liking Dans run is fine. But it proves the point that you enjoyed Doc OCK as Spider-Man. It didn’t bother you that Spider-Man was not Peter Parker, or that Peter became rich and became a character kind of like Tony Stark. 

Spider-Man is Peter Parker and he is far from rich. Two very core elements of the character that should never change for extended periods of time.
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Patrick Lemaire
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Posted: 19 August 2018 at 4:52am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

If you decide that your character is going to age, there are going to be changes. "Core elements" is an arbitrary notion. No two people are going to agree on what they are. Peter Parker should be a high-schooler or a student or in the school system could be one of them.
But you miss the points of Dan's plots. First off, there are tons of different versions of Spider-Man around so that at any time you will always have a poor or a Peter P.arker Spider-Man. This is not the 60s anymore when you had only one version and you couldn't depart from the formula.
But even then, second point, Lee and Romita would have Spidey as an amnesiac working with Octopus for a number of issues. Those experiments just last longer and longer because while the average reader stayed for two years then they now stay for twenty.
Third point, by departing from the core elements, you can bring these core elements in focus. Everything Ock did as Spider-Man acted as a reminder of what Parker would do. Not only that but Ock himself kept comparing himself to Parker. This is clever from Dan's because whereas Spider-Man was the odd superhero in the 60s, he's now the standard and has been imitated endlessly. For instance, when Byrne had Spider-Man as a girl, it was certainly (John will correct me if I'm wrong) as a nod that originally Spider-Man was originally a boy posing as a man.

As for Parker being rich, this is just Dan answering to those fans who claim that as an genius adult, Parker shouldn't be written as a constant failure but should be like computer whiz-kids who launch their start-ups as an adult. Dan demonstrates that by prioritizing his Spider-Man life he jeopardizes his Parker life and this has nothing to do with whether he's a teen or an adult.
All along Dan's tenure, and all along Spider-Man's existence, there have been fan commentary on what is proper or not for the character. Modern writers always make comments on their own as part of that continuing debate. Remember when Conway brought back Gwen Stacy to make the point that she was dead?
Maybe I see these things because I teach literature but the readers that made Dan's tenure a success can't be all lit teachers.
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William Ferguson
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Posted: 19 August 2018 at 6:46am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Thanks for the response Patrick. Some of the things you point out I get, I just think the stories lasted to long. 

And I have to strongly disagree that the core elements that make a character popular for decades is not arbitrary.

My point is, that as you say there are many Spider-Man around, is the biggest problem Marvel has. 

Imagine you are a writer and told to write stories about a character. You should be give guidelines of whats makes this character unique, guidelines on what you can and can’t do with this character. Similar to the example I gave of brands style guides. 
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William Ferguson
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Posted: 19 August 2018 at 6:53am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

As for Parker being rich, this is just Dan answering to those fans who claim that as an genius adult, Parker shouldn't be written as a constant failure but should be like computer whiz-kids who launch their start-ups as an adult.

——————-
Dan shouldn’t answer to fans. Just because Peter is a genius doesn’t mean that life works out for him. Charlie Brown will never kick that football. 
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 19 August 2018 at 8:00am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Peter Parker is rich? How fucking lame. 
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John Byrne
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Posted: 19 August 2018 at 9:44am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

"Never give the fans what they THINK they want."

                                                   Stan Lee

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Petter Myhr Ness
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Posted: 19 August 2018 at 9:57am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Wise man, that Stan!
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Trevor Smith
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Posted: 19 August 2018 at 10:08am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

"As for Parker being rich, this is just Dan answering to
those fans who claim that as an genius adult..."

**

Hey, wow, it's almost like making him an adult in the
first place was a mistake!
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