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Jason Czeskleba Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004 Posts: 4548
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Posted: 19 December 2019 at 11:25pm | IP Logged | 1
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Kevin Brown wrote:
Had he resigned prior to impeachment, he'd be safe; he didn't and he's not. |
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Again, this premise is not at all certain, because the Constitution is vague enough that the Supreme Court would ultimately have to decide.
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Brian Floyd Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 July 2006 Location: United States Posts: 8376
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Posted: 20 December 2019 at 1:16am | IP Logged | 2
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I just hope that if the Senate puts a stop to this (and I'm 99.99% certain they will), that the stain of this causes some voters who would vote to re-elect (and I don't mean his base; he could probably sacrifice a baby to Satan on live tv, and they'd still vote for him) to decide its time for him to go.
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Matt Hawes Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 16439
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Posted: 20 December 2019 at 2:02am | IP Logged | 3
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"Christianity Today" calls for Trump's removal. Interesting.
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Ronald Joseph Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 18 April 2011 Location: United States Posts: 1784
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Posted: 20 December 2019 at 7:09am | IP Logged | 4
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"Christianity Today" calls for Trump's removal. Interesting.
Rats deserting a sinking ship.
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Kevin Brown Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 May 2005 Location: United States Posts: 8847
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Posted: 20 December 2019 at 7:28am | IP Logged | 5
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the Constitution is vague enough that the Supreme Court would ultimately have to decide.
**********************
It's only "vague" to those who don't want to see Trump tried in a real court. The Constitution blatantly says in Article II, Section 2, Clause 1: "The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any Subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment."
That's not vague in the least. That's as direct as any law can be.
Trump's been impeached. He cannot be pardoned. Period.
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Byron Graham Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 September 2004 Location: United States Posts: 929
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Posted: 20 December 2019 at 9:31am | IP Logged | 6
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I think it is a bit vague. One could read it to mean his power to grant pardons goes away when he's been impeached. Another president could still pardon him.
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Brian Floyd Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 July 2006 Location: United States Posts: 8376
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Posted: 20 December 2019 at 9:33am | IP Logged | 7
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Tulsi Gabbard can stop running for President now. Its not like she had a chance to begin with, but she voted `present'.
The impeachment is moot, anyway. Because the spineless Mitch McConnell and his fellow coward Republicans in the Senate will surely not go along with the House. They *might* go with the non-removal option, but I expect them to spout the same `there's no evidence/this is political/this is a witch hunt' bs those in the House did.
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Matt Hawes Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 16439
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Posted: 20 December 2019 at 10:17am | IP Logged | 8
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Kevin Brown wrote:
...He cannot be pardoned. Period. ... |
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That read to me as he, as President, cannot pardon after being impeached. It doesn't seem to suggest that he can't be pardoned, himself.
Edit: I see Bryon also had the same interpretation.
Edited by Matt Hawes on 20 December 2019 at 10:20am
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Marc Baptiste Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3655
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Posted: 20 December 2019 at 12:59pm | IP Logged | 9
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Granted, my reading of the clause is narrow; but, I always read it to mean that the President cannot pardon himself or any other federal officer (e.g., a federal judge) once impeachment for the offense(s) have been passed by the House of Representatives.
Marc
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Jason Czeskleba Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004 Posts: 4548
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Posted: 20 December 2019 at 5:31pm | IP Logged | 10
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Kevin Brown wrote:
It's only "vague" to those who don't want to see Trump tried in a real court. |
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It appears vague to me, and I most definitely would like to see Trump held accountable for crimes he's committed.
Does the article clearly and unambiguously say "If a President is impeached but not convicted in the Senate, then he cannot subsequently be pardoned for any crimes underlying that impeachment"? No, it does not say that. It says the President can issue pardons except in cases of impeachment. That's all it says, and that is vague.
As I said, it could mean that a President simply cannot undo an impeachment conviction with a pardon. If a President is tried for crimes related to a prior impeachment, that trial in itself would not be an impeachment proceeding, and so an argument could be made that a pardon for any conviction resulting from that trial would not be prohibited by the Constitution. Certainly, there would be people who would make that argument, and certainly the majority of members of the SCOTUS would look favorably on arguments that support Republican positions. It is naive to believe that the House's impeachment provides a golden ticket which now guarantees Trump cannot escape prosecution. That just isn't the case.
Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 20 December 2019 at 6:01pm
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Brian Miller Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 July 2004 Location: United States Posts: 30916
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Posted: 21 December 2019 at 3:32pm | IP Logged | 11
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So, let's say John J. Trumblemuck, Republican wins and is elected president in 2032. He feels bad for ol' Trump and wants to pardon him. Going by the text, he cannot. He does not have the power of the pardon in Cases of Impeachment. Very plainly says so.
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Kevin Brown Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 May 2005 Location: United States Posts: 8847
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Posted: 21 December 2019 at 5:34pm | IP Logged | 12
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Brian Miller gets it.
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