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Stephen Robinson
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Posted: 12 January 2006 at 8:47am | IP Logged | 1  

We live in a country in which someone can be called
a "racist" for using ("the N-word") to say it's a bad
word!

******************

HUCK FINN is probably the most anti-racist book in the world and given the time period, it's even more an accomplishment. I mean, the main character -- a 10 year old white kid -- decides that he'd rather "go to hell" by defying everything he's been taught to believe is "right" because he won't betray his friend, despite his race. Yet, "liberals" were trying to ban this book as if it were MEIN KAMPF. It's heartbreaking. I mean, I've been the black guy fighting to get BIRTH OF A NATION shown at the campus theatre because of its historical and educational value, but at least I knew the opposition toward it, while I believed misguided, was at least reasonable (it is a racist film), but the anti-FINN crowd were, well, yes FUCKING IDIOTS!

 

 

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Leroy Douresseaux
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Posted: 12 January 2006 at 8:52am | IP Logged | 2  

Spike Lee thinks a minstrel show would be a huge success in a White market. What more do you need to know about his stance on these matters?

**********************

Well, maybe not a huge success...

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Jeff Stockwell
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Posted: 12 January 2006 at 8:53am | IP Logged | 3  

I'm a big fan of the Turtledove books. Obviously, as his world moves
further and further away from the Civil War it becomes much more
speculative. However, they're a heckuva lotta fun to read.
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Scott Michael
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Posted: 12 January 2006 at 9:55am | IP Logged | 4  

The constitution of the Confederacy is interesting, compared to ours.


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Andrew Davey
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Posted: 12 January 2006 at 10:50am | IP Logged | 5  

What If the south gained independance.

The South may have been forced to industialize if trade with the north was not normalized after the seperation.

Whether the South would have declined into third world status would (err could) have depended on the following factors (1) LEADERSHIP, if progressive leaders invested the new nations resources into useful things like education and economic development (2) the eventual end to slavery (3) the openess of the southern society to the imigration boom from Europe that was to occur soon. After all it was the hard work and inginuity of those new imigrants (like my own Irish ancestors) that built this great nation :-)

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Ed Munoz
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Posted: 12 January 2006 at 11:52am | IP Logged | 6  

god ,i miss that series.......

had the chance to meet vince stone at a chicago con way back when.hes far from racist,and in the marvel series,they even changed the captain into a black woman.

by the way,his cover to the first issue is the very first piece of comic art i ever bought.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 12 January 2006 at 12:56pm | IP Logged | 7  

Whether the South would have declined into third world status would (err could) have depended on the following factors (1) LEADERSHIP, if progressive leaders invested the new nations resources into useful things like education and economic development (2) the eventual end to slavery (3) the openess of the southern society to the imigration boom from Europe that was to occur soon. After all it was the hard work and inginuity of those new imigrants (like my own Irish ancestors) that built this great nation...

****

There seems to be some degree of looking at this thru the wrong end of the telescope (or the history book) wobbling around this thread. The big question would have to be: how soon would the Confederacy have abandoned slavery, without the North to support them (as would have been the case without the Civil War)? Having based virtually their entire economy on the institution, plus having just won a bloody war (which, also, they would have had to have won very early on), they would be disinclined to turn around in a couple of years and say "Oops! My bad!" and dump slavery for more enlightened thinking.

The longer the Confederacy stayed slavery-based, the deeper it would sink, as the rest of the world rose. Becoming what we would now call a Third World nation would not have taken long at all. Heck, the North was pretty close to what we'd call a Third World nation today, and back then it was one of the most advanced societies on the planet!

As noted, Southern Pride would be a tremendous hurdle, and in this case something that would, I think, doom the Confederacy to poverty and starvation, worse and worse as time went by.

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Eric Kleefeld
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Posted: 12 January 2006 at 1:21pm | IP Logged | 8  

John Byrne:

As noted, Southern Pride would be a tremendous hurdle, and in this case something that would, I think, doom the Confederacy to poverty and starvation, worse and worse as time went by.

=================

The South was in many ways a Third World country before the New Deal and later social programs came along, anyway. Plus you had the Jim Crow system, in which they legally consigned a significant portion of their population to poverty and practical non-citizenship, hindering any chance of economic growth and overall development. In the decades after Reconstruction, Southern states set about restoring as much of slavery as they could, just without calling it slavery.

Bear in mind, the Jim Crow system was only undone through a long and hard struggle from the 1950's-1970's, which necessitated heavy federal intervention to force Southern states to give it up. I truly do wonder just how long it might have been before an independent South would have abandoned slavery.
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Leroy Douresseaux
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Posted: 12 January 2006 at 7:33pm | IP Logged | 9  

Spike Lee thinks a minstrel show would be a huge success in a White market. What more do you need to know about his stance on these matters?

***************************************

I just realized that you may be talking about a particular Spike Lee film because I have never heard Spike say this, and I follow his career.  And if you're talking about his movie "Bamboozled," the hit minstrel show and its subsequent success is not the focus of this film.  If you seen the movie...



Edited by Leroy Douresseaux on 12 January 2006 at 7:35pm
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John Byrne
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Posted: 12 January 2006 at 9:54pm | IP Logged | 10  

And if you're talking about his movie "Bamboozled," the hit minstrel show and its subsequent success is not the focus of this film.

****

Emphasis mine.

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Monte Gruhlke
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Posted: 12 January 2006 at 11:58pm | IP Logged | 11  

I always liked the Captain Confederacy series - I'll bet Harry Turtledove took some ideas from it for sure. One thing to conside is the global impact of a split United States. Whether or not the South could keep it's act together, the lack of the USA as a "global superpower" would have dramatic reprocussions on the rest of history; Germany would have had more free reign in the world war, China and the USSR would have been the dominant global superpowers on the planet. Would the North have tried to seize more land from Canada... would we even have gotten Alaska and Hawaii? Would the South have pushed down into Mexico for more resources?

Nothing is set into stone. Though slavery was becoming an outmoded way of life back then, regardless of whether the South recognized it or not, the ramifications of the succession and splitting of the Union would have drastically changed the course of global history.

And being a white man, I just dote on minstrel shows. Huzzah! Huzzah!

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Leroy Douresseaux
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Posted: 13 January 2006 at 3:49am | IP Logged | 12  

And if you're talking about his movie "Bamboozled," the hit minstrel show and its subsequent success is not the focus of this film.

****

Emphasis mine.

*************

Well, it's just part of the film's premise, and that doesn't say that Spike personally believes a minstrel show would be a hit with white audiences.  In fact, in the movie, the minstrel show is a hit across the board.  So as is often done by his critics, you've taken something in his film out of context to take a swipe at him.

But, oh lawdy, let's make sure we protect Mark Twain because he uses "nigger" with the best intentions.  But mean old Spike Lee, that's another thing.  So this is important: have you seen Bamboozled?  Yes or No

Because anyone who has (and on this board, that's probably just me and one or two lurkers) would understand that in the context of the film, the minstrel show is something like a plot device to bring up themes that Spike often uses in his film:  how African-Americans present themselves to the larger culture; a lack of understanding on the part of young African-American entertainers of both cultural and general history; entertainers not turning themselves in modern minstrels just to become famous.

The movie is not about the hit minstrel show, but is actually about black artists, entertainers, and performers working in industries that may that may be hostile towards blacks or simply be willing to do anything to make money regardless of how it affects the larger soceity.

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Emery Calame
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Posted: 13 January 2006 at 5:04am | IP Logged | 13  

Honestly I think "the South"had it survived would have been a hideously poor and backward place trying to keep a virtual feudal system alive in the 1870's to 1910 would have been hideous. They wouldn't have been able to industrialize enough to capitalize on WWI and yet they still would have suffered throught he worst of the depression in the twenties thirties(because farmers got the depression about ten years earlier than everyone else did). I think that Maryland, Kentucky and Delaware would have quickly abandoned their slavery stance and moved on. I think Texas would have lost a lot of land posibly up to the neuces in border struggles with Mexico. More if Maximillian had managed to keep Juarez out of power with the help of France.

In fact I expect that the economics would have gotten so bad that the Confederacy would have seen a lot of emmigration to Mexico and the Union. Pretty much anyone who didn't own land would have left. They probably would have had a truly cataclysmic slave rebellion eventually.

This might have abated somewhat when oil was eventualy discovered sout of Pennsylvania. Then the South, in a universe where the Confederacy actually survived the Civil war, might politically look a whole lot like the modern Middle East. A few very powerful families that are rich as hell would be elevated to the status of royalty with absolute power over the mineral rich regions. They would have a lot of their own personal thugs posing as a middle class, and a lot of starving satellites all around begging for a crumb. And they'd probably have a government propped up by the Union to keep oil prices low-ish. Of course Islam would be replaced by a Baptist or Methodist clergy so the people could be stirred up or simmered down by revivalist preachers in pay of the crown as situations might demand. 



Edited by Emery Calame on 13 January 2006 at 5:06am
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Dave B Stewart
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Posted: 13 January 2006 at 9:39am | IP Logged | 14  

I think that Maryland, Kentucky and Delaware would have quickly abandoned their slavery stance and moved on.

*****

Wouldn't that be a moot point since none of these states were in the Confederacy?

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John Price
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Posted: 13 January 2006 at 9:41am | IP Logged | 15  

Maryland, Kentucky & Delaware weren't in the Confederacy.
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 13 January 2006 at 9:51am | IP Logged | 16  

No, but they were all three still slave-states.
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Dave B Stewart
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Posted: 13 January 2006 at 9:53am | IP Logged | 17  

Not after the emancipation proclamation.
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Matt Hawes
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Posted: 13 January 2006 at 10:39am | IP Logged | 18  

 Leroy wrote:
...Because anyone who has (and on this board, that's probably just me and one or two lurkers)...

That's an unfair statement. One that, ironically, given the subject, paints most of us with the same brush.

For the record, I have seen "Bamboozled." I understand Spike Lee's intent, and the film is interesting. I don't think it's one of his best works, frankly. And, again touching on the subject of irony, the montage of old film clips takes some things out of context to prove a point.

Case in point: A clip shows Stymie of "Our Gang" walking into a classroom wearing man-sized clothes. Well, Lee didn't show that Wheezer and Deborah, Stymie's young friends were also wearing parts of a man's outfit. You see, the small children found some clothes belonging to the brother of their teacher, Miss Crabtree. Her brother had went for a swim, skinny-dipping, and some of the older children stole his clothes and hid them. The younger children discovered the man's clothes and walk into the class, each wearing a different article of the clothing, showing what they had found to the teacher.

The clip, out of context, is suppose to show that Stymie is being portrayed in a clownish manner, I suppose. Why else is that clip there, I wondered? Stymie, as a character, as much as any black child in the "Our Gang" shorts, were mostly shown as equals with the white kids. I can't say that there was never any jokes based on race in the twenty-plus years of the series (It was still a product of its' time), but it was ahead of its' time on its' portrayal of race relations.

Spike Lee is a talented director. I usually enjoy his visual style, though it seemed to be missing some punch in "Bamboozled." I also thought that film was heavy-handed, but I think it's worth watching at least once.

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Dan Helpingstine
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Posted: 13 January 2006 at 10:58am | IP Logged | 19  

as far as Captain Confederacy the comic goes; i loved it and after reading an odd issue bought as part of a "grab bag" of comics i sought out the rest of the series...

Matt, what is Vince Stone doing currently?  i loved his art style and would love to see it again!
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Matt Hawes
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Posted: 13 January 2006 at 11:05am | IP Logged | 20  

Dan, Vince works for Atlas Van Lines in the graphics department. As far as I know, he is not currently working on any comics, but he does still draw the characters. He gave me a nice print of the Avengers and the Fantastic Four a few months ago. Hopefully, Vince will have a chance to work on a comic again in the future. 

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Emery Calame
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Posted: 13 January 2006 at 11:36am | IP Logged | 21  

I am aware that Delaware and Maryland and Kentucky did not rebel. Nonetheless I was making the point that if the Confederacy had survived I doubted very much that they would have maintained an agrarian slave labor economy. I was unclear by putting them in the text of "what would have happened if the Confederacy had survived". But I was trying to suggest that they would not have been encouraged to quit the union and join the confederacy. Kentucky and Delaware certainly did not want to secede and Maryland got garrisoned when the Confederacy formed to prevent them from breaking away. My point was supposed to be that agrarian slavery sucks as an economic base compared to an urban industrialism which the North had adoptend in its nascent form.

Not after the emancipation proclamation.

The Emancipation Proclamation only applied to the rebel states.  Slaveholding border states (and territories) were exempted.

Slavery itself was actually outlawed Nationwide by the 13th ammendment AFTER THE WAR.



Edited by Emery Calame on 13 January 2006 at 11:39am
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Dave B Stewart
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Posted: 13 January 2006 at 12:39pm | IP Logged | 22  

I was trying to suggest that they would not have been encouraged to quit the union and join the confederacy. Kentucky and Delaware certainly did not want to secede and Maryland got garrisoned when the Confederacy formed to prevent them from breaking away.

*****

I understand your point now.

 

The Emancipation Proclamation only applied to the rebel states.  Slaveholding border states (and territories) were exempted.

Slavery itself was actually outlawed Nationwide by the 13th ammendment AFTER THE WAR.

*****

My error.  My point was that slavery would not have existed in the US after the war even if the South had won.

 

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John Byrne
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Posted: 13 January 2006 at 12:55pm | IP Logged | 23  

Well, it's just part of the film's premise, and that doesn't say that Spike personally believes a minstrel show would be a hit with white audiences.  In fact, in the movie, the minstrel show is a hit across the board.  So as is often done by his critics, you've taken something in his film out of context to take a swipe at him.

****

How is it "out of context"? Is there, or is there not a successful minstrel show? Is it, or is it not popular with White audiences? You say it's popular "across the board". As I recall -- from seeing the movie -- that "board" doesn't develop a sudden warp in it that takes it neatly around White audiences, leaving them unaffected.

++++

But, oh lawdy, let's make sure we protect Mark Twain because he uses "nigger" with the best intentions.  But mean old Spike Lee, that's another thing.

****

Unless "Bamboozled" was made in the 1920s or thereabouts -- and, somehow, I don't recall that it was -- it is entirely "another". Mark Twain wrote of and in a specific time and place. His work reflects this. The same cannot be said, in this instance, of Spike Lee.

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Leroy Douresseaux
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Posted: 13 January 2006 at 2:58pm | IP Logged | 24  

JB, yes, there is a successful minstrel show within the film; thus it is fictional and not an indication that Spike necessarily believes that a minstrel show would be a hit today in our world.  But it's clear from your original comment that you want to marginalize him as an artist by painting him as a wacko, which is your right.

******

JB wrote: Mark Twain wrote of and in a specific time and place. His work reflects this. The same cannot be said, in this instance, of Spike Lee.

L:  Yes the same can be said of Spike, which is obvious to someone who has seen most of his films.  That would be me and no one else on this board.

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Brian Miller
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Posted: 13 January 2006 at 3:02pm | IP Logged | 25  

That would be me and no one else on this board.

*****************

How do you know this?

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