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Zaki Hasan
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Posted: 22 March 2005 at 12:11am | IP Logged | 1  

 Troy Nunis wrote:
So was Animal Man, So was Doom Patrol . . . your point?


As mentioned previously, Morrison's Animal Man ended pretty much the way it started.

Further, like I said before, regardless of how permanent a change may seem, it usually ends up coming back around.  Ten years ago Hal Jordan was insane, then he was good, then he was dead.  Now he's back.

Point being, it's not like the respective writers, be they Ron Marz or Grant Morrison or Mark Waid or whoever are "getting one over" on the publisher.  The same way DC allowed Morrison to go nuts on DP, they allowed JB to reboot it.


Edited by Zaki Hasan on 22 March 2005 at 12:15am
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Eric Kleefeld
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Posted: 22 March 2005 at 12:15am | IP Logged | 2  

Animal Man was not changed.  Read the last issue of the run and consider the full ramifications.

Animal Man was about man's discovery of God.  In this case, it was symbolically done as a comic book character discovering his author.  We saw in one issue Crafty Coyote, condemned by God to suffer for his objections to the ways of the world.  In the end of this fairy tale, though, God (the author) takes pity on the suffering of man (Buddy) and decides to set things right.  Buddy is a Job figure who is now being given back all he had at the beginning of the story.

And so Animal Man is left off exactly where he started.
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Troy Nunis
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Posted: 22 March 2005 at 12:21am | IP Logged | 3  

well geeze, why not cut to the chase and say "it's only comics"?

i wouldn't agree Animal man was left "pretty much" the way Morrison found it, and certainly other characters he used durring the run were never restored.

And yes, sometimes, when mistakes are made, they get corrected, but sometimes it takes years or decades and requires a continuity scrub like JB's Doom Patrol -- and as a fan of many characters, i would much rather they remain viable and useable instead of expended like dirty tissue by morrison.

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Eric Kleefeld
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Posted: 22 March 2005 at 12:35am | IP Logged | 4  

Troy,

How was Animal Man different at the end?  There was a slight alteration to the mechanics of Buddy's powers, explained as being caused by the meta-gene bomb at the end of Invasion, and easily reversible if a successive writer wanted.
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Eric Kleefeld
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Posted: 22 March 2005 at 12:44am | IP Logged | 5  

I should also add that this brings back a great scene at the end of Animal Man.  Buddy asked Morrison why his wife and children couldn't just be brought back.  Morrison talked about fans who think about continuity, who would object to undoing it or to cheapening the moment by bringing them back.  At the end, though, the character made such an impression on the author that Morrison realized there are more important things than continuity.


Edited by Eric Kleefeld on 22 March 2005 at 12:45am
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 22 March 2005 at 1:58am | IP Logged | 6  

That's what eventually turned me off to Morrison on ANIMAL MAN.  I didn't like him setting himself up as "god".  Yeah, a writer could ultimately be perceived as the god of the characters they write, as they act at the writer's behest, but it got too cutesy and internal for me.  I also have a problem with any writer working on a company-owned character(s) as if they are a god and can do pretty much whatever they want without thinking about future consequences, instead of what they should be doing which is writing in service to the character.  In that way, the writer wouldn't be "god" at all.  What they do with their own creator-owned characters is one thing, but seriously when was the last time you saw Animal Man used for any length of time post-Morrison? I'm talking longer than a one or two issue appearance.  Even though he put the pieces back together, so to speak, I have a feeling that most think of the character in a way that's not conducive to being a player in the DCU because of Morrison's association with him.
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Ian Muir
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Posted: 22 March 2005 at 1:59am | IP Logged | 7  

 Troy Nunis wrote:
i wouldn't agree Animal man was left "pretty much" the way Morrison found it, and certainly other characters he used durring the run were never restored.

Did you read his entire run, just in order to complete the sense of outrage at what he was doing to these beloved characters, who, outside of an appearance in Crisis, had been firmly in the third tier for years?

 Troy Nunis wrote:
 and as a fan of many characters, i would much rather they remain viable and useable instead of expended like dirty tissue by morrison.

Nice image. Did Morrison run over your dog or something?

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Zaki Hasan
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Posted: 22 March 2005 at 2:23am | IP Logged | 8  

 Matt Reed wrote:
...seriously when was the last time you saw Animal Man used for any length of time post-Morrison?


Not agreeing or disagreeing with what you're saying, since I haven't yet read the Morrison AM run, but when was Animal Man used for any length of time pre-Morrison?
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Eric Kleefeld
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Posted: 22 March 2005 at 2:31am | IP Logged | 9  

Animal Man's series lasted up through the mid-90s.  That's a lot of post-Morrison treatment of the character.  However, most of them aimed to make things even stranger, eventually going to Vertigo, rather than bear in mind that Morrison left it at the status quo when his run ended.
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Dave Farabee
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Posted: 22 March 2005 at 2:46am | IP Logged | 10  

 Matt Reed wrote:
That's what eventually turned me off to Morrison on ANIMAL MAN.  I didn't like him setting himself up as "god".  Yeah, a writer could ultimately be perceived as the god of the characters they write, as they act at the writer's behest, but it got too cutesy and internal for me.  I also have a problem with any writer working on a company-owned character(s) as if they are a god and can do pretty much whatever they want without thinking about future consequences, instead of what they should be doing which is writing in service to the character.

As a general rule, I agree with you, but any genre can use some experimentation and third-tier Animal Man was about as safe a character to experiment with as can be found. But I think quality of story, subjective as that is, is probably the biggest factor in determining when to experiment and when not to.  For me, Morrison's ANIMAL MAN experiment was so suspensful, so heartfelt, so full of great ideas and moments, that it easily passes that test. Milleage may vary, but I think the principle stands. Moore's SWAMP THING, Byrne's SHE-HULK, the Bierbaum LEGION era, and Truman and Ostrander's HAWKWORLD all come to mind as some of the riskier Marvel/DC ventures that I've enjoyed.


 QUOTE:
Even though he put the pieces back together, so to speak, I have a feeling that most think of the character in a way that's not conducive to being a player in the DCU because of Morrison's association with him.

That may be the perception, but there's no real reason for it to exist. Fer inst, Geoff Johns could send the character to Keystone City for a few issues of FLASH and have Buddy and his wife bond with Wally and Linda between mixing it up with some supervillains...and I think everyone would take it perfectly in stride. I think that's all it would take to shake off the character's pre-Vertigo Vertigosity.

-Dave

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Eric Kleefeld
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Posted: 22 March 2005 at 2:54am | IP Logged | 11  

Fer inst, Geoff Johns could send the character to Keystone City for a few issues of FLASH and have Buddy and his wife bond with Wally and Linda between mixing it up with some supervillains...and I think everyone would take it perfectly in stride. I think that's all it would take to shake off the character's pre-Vertigo Vertigosity.

**********

Morrison already did something like that in JLA.  Animal Man helped the League fight off Mageddon, and this was a Buddy who didn't seem too affected by the Vertigo period.  I don't recall if that stuff was addressed in a spare speech bubble or not, but it was almost as if that stuff didn't happen.  This was Morrison's Buddy.

Morrison put the pieces back together when he was done, which was a fitting ending to the whole exercise itself.  It's not his fault that future writers decided to break them again.


Edited by Eric Kleefeld on 22 March 2005 at 2:54am
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Zaki Hasan
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Posted: 22 March 2005 at 3:01am | IP Logged | 12  

Morrison also had a lengthy stint on THE FLASH, as well as his own AZTEK, THE ULTIMATE MAN, both of which were pretty straight-ahead standard superhero stuff.  Maybe that's why no one really talks about them.
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