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Jason K Fulton Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 September 2016 Location: United States Posts: 703
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Posted: 20 March 2024 at 6:23pm | IP Logged | 1
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Per the Spinner Rack Twitter account. I don't know that Frank Miller broke Batman, but....the response to this book (and Batman: Year One) by the comic creator community kind of did?
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Brian Rhodes Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3309
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Posted: 20 March 2024 at 7:32pm | IP Logged | 2
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The problem with extrapolation from what Miller did in The Dark Knight Returns is that, yes, his Batman was angry and noticeably more violent and beat up Superman.
People, fans and creators alike, seemed to just love those aspects. So those are the ones they've latched onto. Batman's an a-hole. He's angry and violent. He can beat Superman!
But they often leave out the part that, despite his gruffness, he's still not a killer. And his compassion, which Miller retains, doesn't always come along for the ride, either. Because those aspects are somehow less glamorous.
And the idea that Bruce Wayne suffers from some kind of mental illness and paranoia I think is owed largely to this work. But being crazy is not what made Bruce Wayne Batman. At the beginning of the story it was NOT having been Batman for years is that had made Bruce Wayne "crazy". Remember that first night out? "Born again!" And he thought the government had it out for him and his kind. That wasn't paranoia, as in-story evidence strongly supported it.
And did he really beat Superman?? If so, it was just barely. And only after the guy just bounced back from a nuke. And not without a lot of other help. And by the end of it, if they're not super-friendly, they've at least won each other's respect back, to a degree.
That version of Batman was supposed to be a one-off, an alternate take in a possible future of a different world. It wasn't intended to be the blueprint of the character in canon for the next four decades. And yet, it was just what it became. A blueprint that's usually followed poorly, at that.
Edited by Brian Rhodes on 21 March 2024 at 6:24pm
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132391
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Posted: 20 March 2024 at 7:47pm | IP Logged | 3
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So many overlooked the fact that DKR as set in the Future and, as per Frank’s intent, Bruce had been driven more than a little mad by his betrayal of his oath to his parents.
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James Johnson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 March 2009 Location: United States Posts: 2069
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Posted: 20 March 2024 at 8:06pm | IP Logged | 4
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Shhhhhh JB,🤫Don't say that too loud. Many fans will say that you're dead wrong........
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Jonathan A. Dowdell Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 July 2016 Location: United States Posts: 417
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Posted: 20 March 2024 at 10:32pm | IP Logged | 5
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I remember that day, as a Marvel Zombie, I walked into my LCS and said, "didn't that Frank Miller Batman book come out today?" It wasn't on the shelf. The owner (manager?) walked into the backroom, came out and handed me a copy of The Dark Knight Returns #1. Something I am still grateful for. It forever changed by appreciation for Batman.
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William Costello Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 August 2012 Location: United States Posts: 743
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Posted: 20 March 2024 at 11:34pm | IP Logged | 6
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I still have my copy from Space Travelers Trading Post (Derby CT). David Armstrong kept hold lists for his regular customers (I was one of the regulars.).
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Rebecca Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018 Location: Canada Posts: 4583
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Posted: 21 March 2024 at 12:19am | IP Logged | 7
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I thought he drove over a pile of bodies in a bat tank?
I still say it was mostly the underground Trashman comic by Spain Rodriguez in bat trappings. I think I only read the first Year One comic and that was enough for me, I was on my way out from looking at anything superheroes at that time... in fact someone pushed Miller Batman, Watchmen and I believe the Aquaman miniseries where he gets a new outfit as "I had to see them", but didn't make me as interested as I was in FF #286 and X-Factor #1-3, the last superhero comics I would read for something like thirty years. I would only read about or see panels from Lobo, The Killing Joke and Wonder Woman beating The Cheetah with her spine-tail in what ever fan publications I still got. The Comics Buyers Guide used to give me 'hyves' from all the over the top hype in it. The beginning of an 'age of extreme'. I'm glad I've since dug around to find some of the good stuff I missed but wanting to own the four Dark Knight or twelve Watchmen comics again... not going to happen.
If I could go back though what I would want to make never happen are Lobo, Deadpool, X-Force (the additional characters added to make New Mutants into it), Carnage and that Beyonder guy... I see those creeps in a comic I otherwise like and those issues are dead to me.
Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 21 March 2024 at 12:22am
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Bob Harvey Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 November 2014 Location: United States Posts: 221
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Posted: 21 March 2024 at 12:28am | IP Logged | 8
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Thanks for your brave stand, Rebecca.
Year One is perhaps the very best run of mainstream superhero comics, but sure, lump it in with Deadpool and Lobo.
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Rebecca Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018 Location: Canada Posts: 4583
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Posted: 21 March 2024 at 12:34am | IP Logged | 9
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I thought I was saying Lobo and Deadpool could cease to be, not Dark Knight/Year One. Oh well, I guess if I quack like a Galacduck... :^)
Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 21 March 2024 at 12:35am
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Rodrigo castellanos Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 July 2012 Location: Uruguay Posts: 1469
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Posted: 21 March 2024 at 3:09am | IP Logged | 10
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BATMAN: YEAR ONE gets better every time I reread it.
DKR has the opposite effect on me.
The fact that both were written by the same person at roughly the same time is kind of mind blowing.
Still, he didn't "break" Batman or anything of the sort - Batman continues to be awesome.
Edited by Rodrigo castellanos on 21 March 2024 at 3:17am
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James Woodcock Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 7649
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Posted: 21 March 2024 at 6:30am | IP Logged | 11
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I took that Rebecca wanted the excessive characters that came after TDK to go away. She just doesn’t want to read TDK to Year1 again. & I have to admit, I never found the appeal of Lobo or Deadpool either.
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Daniel Gillotte Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 October 2005 Location: United States Posts: 2599
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Posted: 21 March 2024 at 1:19pm | IP Logged | 12
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I re-read this recently and I actually think that Miller is presenting a hopeful potential for our future future. As pointed out by our host and others, Bruce is screwed up at the beginning because he wasn't being Batman, wasn't helping or doing his part. Once he starts to he comes alive and not because he enjoyed violence. I think his captions about physical stuff is actually rather clinical not exultant. Ultimately, Bruce bcoming Batman again and adding Carrie as a new Robin starts to undo the bad that's happened and attempts to set stuff right and he is hopefult that they can do that by the end.
The fighting Superman was because Superman, as far as Bruce was concerned, had broken his oath and betrayed hie heroism due to becoiming effectively a tool of the corrupt US president. BUT, in rereading I found more compassion for Clark in MIller's writing than when I was younger. Clark isn't a fascist tool because he's into it he's trying to make the best of a s*itty situation. Bruce's beatdown perhaps was intended to shake him up, remind him of who he is. And the fact that Clark hears Bruce's heartbeat but does nothing is indicative that Clark is still Clark.
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