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Topic: Skullduggery - 02.15.09 Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Monte Gruhlke
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Posted: 17 February 2009 at 1:07pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Not a lot of tolerance in Rock Ridge, but eventually everyone came around.
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Aric Shapiro
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Posted: 17 February 2009 at 1:11pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

"My friend said, words to the affect of "You know we're Jewish, right?" The KKK guy said, "Yeah, but you two are okay."

FEH!

what I found most troubling about the images linked above are the number of children....the Hitler Youth were massive in their number.  Don't tell me they ALL just stopped believing the hatred they were taught

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Peter Martin
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Posted: 17 February 2009 at 1:37pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

"what I found most troubling about the images linked above are the number of children"

------------------------------------------------------------ ----

Children often cheer the head of the state without necessarily understanding what that head of state stands for (or even knowing that a head of state does stand for something). Those pictures are disturbing in a lot of ways -- just what was Neville Chamberlain thinking?? -- not least because of the scale, but just going by what is in the pictures, the ones with the kids aren't that far removed from parades I went to as a kid to see the Queen going by (just with, like, fewer swastikas and all).

Obviously we know now that the Nazi party represented xenophobic hatred on an unparallelled nature and was responsible for attrocities on an unprecedented scale. We look at kids cheering that self-same bunch and their leader and we think, 'scary', but the kids probably had little idea what they were cheering beyond doing their bit to support their national leader like daddy told them. Kids will generally do what they're told and believe what their parents tell them. If their parents tell them 'Hitler is a great man, cheer for him', they'll do it.

I suppose it shows how dodgy all this kind of nationalistic breast-bashing is when you get kids involved who just don't know any better. If you go to a parade as a kid and wave a flag by the time you're old enough to make up your own mind it's too late.

Edited to add: I'm not in anyway trying to defend the institution of the Hitler Youth, just trying to give the benefit of the doubt to those too young to swim against the current. 



Edited by Peter Martin on 17 February 2009 at 1:41pm
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Robert Kowalewski II
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Posted: 17 February 2009 at 2:10pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Brad, anybody near AZ is welcome! Oh and we are moving to TEXAS in 6 months!

 

Where?

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Clint Ludwick
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Posted: 17 February 2009 at 2:19pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Ft. Bliss
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Robert Kowalewski II
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Posted: 17 February 2009 at 2:27pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

All the way on the other side of Texas I see.  Yes, I had to look it up. ;-)
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Clint Ludwick
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Posted: 17 February 2009 at 2:30pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Rob,  I will proable drive to Houston a few times a year, I hear that have alot of nice car shops there.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 17 February 2009 at 2:32pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

what I found most troubling about the images linked above are the number
of children....the Hitler Youth were massive in their number. Don't tell me
they ALL just stopped believing the hatred they were taught


••

Two memories stand out sharply from my childhood. Across the hall in the
apartment in which my family lived when I was about 12 was a German
couple. He had been in the Luftwaffe, but had been shot down over
Russia six months into the War and had spent the rest of it in a prison camp.

She was actually Austrian, and expressed to my mother one day how sad she
had been as a girl, that she had not been allowed to join the Hitler Youth
because of her nationality. (Something for those on the Forum who
appreciate irony.)

At a different time she wondered aloud, "If Hitler killed all the Jews, why are
there still so many of them, and all rich?"

No, Ari, they most certainly did not just stop believing!
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Aric Shapiro
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Posted: 17 February 2009 at 2:37pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

"At a different time she wondered aloud, "If Hitler killed all the Jews, why are
there still so many of them, and all rich?"

My blood is staring to boil again....

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William McCormick
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Posted: 17 February 2009 at 2:52pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Ft. Bliss

*******

I spent a month down there in 1995. Had to shake scorpions out of my shoes every morning. Of course I was sleeping in a hex tent but still....

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Aric Shapiro
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Posted: 17 February 2009 at 3:05pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

"Children often cheer the head of the state without necessarily understanding what that head of state stands for (or even knowing that a head of state does stand for something). "

These were more than six year old's standing around at a parade and cheerig.  Many were older, much older and were quite aware. 

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Andrew Hess
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Posted: 17 February 2009 at 3:08pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Ari said: ..."Don't tell me they ALL just stopped believing the hatred they were taught"

*************

No, but fortunately some have.

We have a friend who was in the Nazi youth when she was very young, maybe 5-6 years old at the most. She says she has spent her whole life trying to get over and reconcile being swept up into that Nazi-led national euphoria.

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Aric Shapiro
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Posted: 17 February 2009 at 3:10pm | IP Logged | 13 post reply

"She says she has spent her whole life trying to get over and reconcile being swept up into that Nazi-led national euphoria."

Any many have spent entire lifetimes trying to forgive the atrocities of a Nation

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Andrew Hess
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Posted: 17 February 2009 at 3:16pm | IP Logged | 14 post reply

Completely agree with you, Ari.
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Joakim Jahlmar
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Posted: 18 February 2009 at 7:20am | IP Logged | 15 post reply

JB wrote:
“I've told of a dinner party a few years back where one of the guests -- a guy we had all known for years by that point -- flabberghasted all else present, including his own wife, by casually revealing himself to be a Holocaust denier. Just slid right out in conversation as if it was the most natural thing on Earth to say.”

That’s one really frightening little tale, JB.  I’m rather glad I haven’t had anything similar happen, although one can’t help but wonder if there are any such hidden belief or disbelief in ones own vicinity.

Vinny wrote:
“I'll never understand the Holocaust deniers. It's one thing to think it was a good thing or whatever, but to say that it never happened? What about the scads of footage of the atrocities in action? How do they actually answer that?”

What I find really frustrating is the fact that a great deal of the people who deny that the Holocaust happened, often give voice to opinions that suggests that they wouldn’t be against it happening as a general idea.  Which strikes me as somewhat paradoxical or at least disingenuous.  If you think it’s a good idea, why not “celebrate” the “achievement” and take a stand for one’s own insane belief, rather than basically repeating “it didn’t happen, it didn’t happen...  but it wouldn’t be a bad idea”...

Truly sickening.


JB wrote:
“Which is why the First Amendment really does need that ‘except for assholes’ clause!”

The problem of course, as always, being who gets to decide the definition of assholes... continuously down the road.  Might only be a matter of time before the assholes use that very thing against the people whom it was created to protect from the assholes in the first place.

But yes, there is something inherently problematic in allowing those who favour various forms of undemocratic social and political systems to be allowed to voicing their belief.
Not to mention the absurdity of such parties entering into the actual democratic political process.
Whether it’s from the right or the left, I always find it a bit suspect when a party enters the election fold with a political programme that favours violent revolution of one type or another.  Always makes me wonder what they’re doing in the process to begin with...

Andrew wrote:
“My friend said, words to the affect of ‘You know we're Jewish, right?’ The KKK guy said, ‘Yeah, but you two are okay.’”

Oh, great!  And if THOSE people would only realise that if there are two... maybe there are more.  In fact, maybe you cannot judge people by their ethnicity at all?  Mindboggling, ain’t it?
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 18 February 2009 at 7:27am | IP Logged | 16 post reply

Not only was Hitler an evil, mad bastard with only one testicle, but he had bad table manners:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article57 55375.ece

 

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Ernest Voyard
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Posted: 18 February 2009 at 8:49am | IP Logged | 17 post reply

Question to JB:

I noticed on this piece there isn't a complete swastika
in the image. The "cufflink" on the arm holding the
cube comes close, but is still a little blurred. Was
this a conscious decision?

Thanks.

Ernest

(Edited to fix typo- wrote conscience meant conscious )

Edited by Ernest Voyard on 18 February 2009 at 9:31am
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John Byrne
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Posted: 18 February 2009 at 9:21am | IP Logged | 18 post reply

No conscious decision to break up the swastikas. Just worked out that way.
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Bob Simko
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Posted: 18 February 2009 at 10:19am | IP Logged | 19 post reply

No, Ari, they most certainly did not just stop believing!
************************************************************ ********

I saw a very interesting program...probably on the History Channel a long time ago that addressed the post-war urban revolt/warfare that was going on against the Aliies after they occupied Germany.  Something you don't hear too much about, unlike the regular feeds you see now via the modern media.

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Scott Silverstein
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Posted: 18 February 2009 at 10:29am | IP Logged | 20 post reply

this is a great thread....along the same lines of I wonder how nazis feel...

Anyone ever read

The Portage of San Cristobel of A. H.  by GEORGE STEINER  (1981)

 

Fantastic work .... Steiner places Hitler alive in the south american jungle where nazi hunters track him down and put in on trail....in the trail HILTER is allowed to defend himself and claim that  ISRAEL owes it existence due to the Holocaust....

 

 

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John Byrne
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Posted: 18 February 2009 at 12:11pm | IP Logged | 21 post reply

I've said elsewhere that the biggest favor Hitler did the world was killing
himself. Sure, we were denied "closure", but in this case I think that is a
good idea.

During the War, Hitler was a cartoon character. Every chance was taken to
mock him, portray him as a clown and a loser. The kind of guy who got
kicked in the pants by Bugs Bunny.

Film footage has come to light since the end of the War showing what an
utterly destroyed human being Hitler was by the time he pulled the trigger.
"Doddery" would be a good word. And I do not think bringing him to trial
would have done the world any favors. Dragging that frail, bewildered old
man into a courtroom, a la Nuremberg, might well have elicited the
very last thing we would have wanted: sympathy.

When he killed himself, he began the demonization process. Hitler is viewed
today as an almost supernatural evil, not a clown. And that, I think, is a
good thing.
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Jeremiah Avery
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Posted: 18 February 2009 at 2:02pm | IP Logged | 22 post reply

First off, great commission, JB!

Secondly, I've been to the Holocaust Museum in D.C. and "sobering" is an understatement.  There's a quote on one of the walls from General Eisenhower how he is there to bear witness and attests that what he has seen is real and to give his word that this all actually happened.  Seeing all that happened fills me with anger and sorrow for what happened and that people still deny it happened.  Then where did they all go, dumb@$$?

JB, did you have any input into the "Days of Future Past" story and was the allegory deemed a bit too much for the powers that be at the time?

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Peter Martin
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Posted: 18 February 2009 at 2:14pm | IP Logged | 23 post reply

Anyone ever read 'Nazi Hunter' a biography of Simon Wiesenthal? It's a fascinating book, with simply dreadful details of the death camps -- there's a telling story in there of how, following Wiesenthal's liberation from a concentration camp by GI's, he is doing a lot of wandering in the hills trying to get his strength back and runs into a woman on a farm. He tells her his story -- and she doesn't believe him. He then basically devotes his life to gathering (a) testimonies from Holocaust survivors and (b) hunting down former Nazis to make them stand trial for their war crimes.

Edited by Peter Martin on 18 February 2009 at 2:15pm
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Jeremiah Avery
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Posted: 18 February 2009 at 2:19pm | IP Logged | 24 post reply

What's even worse than not being believed, is that some survivors who returned home were later killed.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 18 February 2009 at 2:20pm | IP Logged | 25 post reply

JB, did you have any input into the "Days of Future Past" story and was the
allegory deemed a bit too much for the powers that be at the time?

••

Except for the inclusion of Senator Kelly, who was Chris' character, "Days of
Future Past" is entirely mine. Some may recall my having mentioned before
that upon arriving on UNCANNY I told Chris I wanted to do a Sentinel story,
and his response was "Sentinels are wimpy." "No," said I, "you write
them wimpy." So I plotted a story in which the Sentinels basically kick
everybody's behind and take over the world.

Since the story saw print, I wonder how you could conclude it was "too
much" for the Powers That Were?
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