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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132316
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| Posted: 21 March 2024 at 2:52pm | IP Logged | 1
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Clark isn't a fascist tool because he's into it he's trying to make the best of a s*itty situation. ••• By tearing off Green Arrow’s arm?
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Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 12445
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| Posted: 21 March 2024 at 3:12pm | IP Logged | 2
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Doesn't seem fair to blame Frank Miller for how his imaginary, future tale was eventually taken.
But here's a related question: (not counting the WHAT IF? series) was "Days of Future Past" the first dystopian storyline in a mainstream, superhero comicbook?
(See how everything is somehow your fault ultimately, JB?)
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132316
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| Posted: 21 March 2024 at 3:52pm | IP Logged | 3
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How about Kamandi? The Atomic Knights?
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Koroush Ghazi
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1652
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| Posted: 21 March 2024 at 4:06pm | IP Logged | 4
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Has it really been 38 years since Frank Miller helped make pseudo-
psychological degenerative deconstructionism de rigueur for superhero
comics? Well done Mr Miller!
Edited by Koroush Ghazi on 21 March 2024 at 4:19pm
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Jason K Fulton
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 September 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 698
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| Posted: 21 March 2024 at 4:39pm | IP Logged | 5
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JB, what was your reaction to the Superman portrayal in DKR while you were working on the mainline books?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132316
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| Posted: 21 March 2024 at 5:07pm | IP Logged | 6
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I wasn’t thrilled. For some reason Frank didn’t want to tell me what he was doing, and when I asked the best I could get from him was “don’t worry, you’ll love it.”I didn’t.
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Jason K Fulton
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 September 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 698
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| Posted: 21 March 2024 at 5:11pm | IP Logged | 7
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From the outside looking in, and with all due respect, mid-1980s DC Editorial sounds like it was incredibly bad at planning (or maybe it was incompetence, but I'm going to assume everyone was trying to do their best). I'm just trying to wrap my head around the idea that they land (arguably) the biggest name in comics to take over their flagship character, and then they completely undermined it.
Like - no one thought to tell Frank "No, you can't do that"?
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Dave Kopperman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 December 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3151
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| Posted: 21 March 2024 at 5:31pm | IP Logged | 8
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DKR is one of the earliest examples for me of separating out the thematic stuff from a work that I otherwise loved. It remains a beautifully illustrated and tightly written book that I wholly disagree with.
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Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4540
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| Posted: 21 March 2024 at 5:34pm | IP Logged | 9
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There was Killraven and Deathlock... I like a well made dystopian future usually and I have all of those '70s series. Dark Knight Returns was more a caricature. An interesting side show, only dulled via repetition.
I have to plead ignorance of Batman Year One, I just saw the first one... thrust into my hands at the time to be returned immediately after read where I worked (guy in a nearby shop was the owner of comic). I remember the art style mainly. It may have been later I read the thing about a big scary bat demon in the cave stuff, if that wasn't part of the first issue. All those years we had the guy who saw his parents shot in front of him and a bat few in his window later, yatt-yatta... did not care for the idea of a bat demon addition, well done though it may've been. Also dislike the Joker being the guy who shot his parents in front of him, extremely dislike that.
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Daniel Gillotte
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 October 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 2593
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| Posted: 21 March 2024 at 7:06pm | IP Logged | 10
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It's clear in DKR that Oliver BLAMES Superman for himn losing his arm. But is it stated that Superman really DID tear off his arm? I wouldn't call Oliver the most reliable narrator.
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Brian Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 30901
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| Posted: 21 March 2024 at 7:32pm | IP Logged | 11
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Pretty sure it’s stated
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James Woodcock
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 7625
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| Posted: 21 March 2024 at 8:15pm | IP Logged | 12
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I really liked TDK on release. But I preferred Born Again & Batman Year 1.
However, it & Watchmen are forever tarnished in my eyes because they led
to the end of all age stories & the increase of ultra violence & graphic
blood.
There does seem to be a move to increase the number of all age comics
again, which I think is. Good thing, but I fear the damage is too deep, with
readership forever lost
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